Thank you Benji. You summed up nicely why this thread is so valuable to newly diagnosed ones like me. It sounds as if you had not been so well informed in the past yourself. I'm sorry for that.Perhaps you can add your experiences to this thread. Take care, Carole
Hi Goldengirl,
No manifesto,they are for politically minded individuals.Politics i find to be a juggling of this and that in an attempt to keep the majority of the electorate happy.whilst those politically minded folk proposing the manifesto preach their views for their own end.
I believe in common sense,every ones right to their opinion,freedom of speech,and have no time for politics in any walk of life.Politics,manifestos and a list of rules are not for me.My opinion of what i believe in i have given in the past.I have lost count of the number of people on here who in noticing adverse side effects,did something about it.They may read this and say to themselves"well i was aware something was wrong,and did something about it".Maybe as suggested earlier in this thread,and i have mentioned this in the past.Personality traits have a lot to do with how different people cope on DA,s.Maybe this should be considered more before prescribing.Its as simple as that.There is no need for a massive manifesto.This constantly causes heated debate.Akin to politicians arguing when the solution can be summed up in a couple of short paragraphs.
All the best
Titan
No manifesto,they are for politically minded individuals.Politics i find to be a juggling of this and that in an attempt to keep the majority of the electorate happy.whilst those politically minded folk proposing the manifesto preach their views for their own end.
I believe in common sense,every ones right to their opinion,freedom of speech,and have no time for politics in any walk of life.Politics,manifestos and a list of rules are not for me.My opinion of what i believe in i have given in the past.I have lost count of the number of people on here who in noticing adverse side effects,did something about it.They may read this and say to themselves"well i was aware something was wrong,and did something about it".Maybe as suggested earlier in this thread,and i have mentioned this in the past.Personality traits have a lot to do with how different people cope on DA,s.Maybe this should be considered more before prescribing.Its as simple as that.There is no need for a massive manifesto.This constantly causes heated debate.Akin to politicians arguing when the solution can be summed up in a couple of short paragraphs.
All the best
Titan
Good morning, Titan.
(1) Just because Goldengirl chose to use the word manifesto you've managed to use this to go off at a pointless tangent in the middle of the night and ramble on about politics. You know very well this thread is not about that.
Let's just replace the word manifesto with some harmless phrase like Terms of Reference, or any other which meets your pedantic approval, and continue sensibly.
(2) Despite having been a Councillor in the past you imply that I am being politically-minded here, and that I am proposing a manifesto to preach my views for my own end. I have clearly laid out my goals here, and would be grateful if you could point out exactly where I demonstrate political-mindedness, preach, or do anything for my own ends.
(3) You also imply that I have in some way denied people their right to freedom of speech, or to have an opinion of their own. Again, show me where.
(4) You inform us that a list of rules is not for you. Fair enough, let's remove all the lists of rules then, shall we? All those created by Parliament over the last 300 years? Employees' rights? Pension accrual? Soccer with no rulebook would be brilliant, ditto boxing. You go live in such a world, Titan - we'll stay here, thanks! My post was merely an attempt to explain where I'm "at", why I'm so passionate about the cause. I've simply been there, and am doing my best to prevent others doing the same.
(5) The underlying problem between you and us is that rather than accept the facts as agreed all around the PD world, you cling on to your own theories about DA takers who then go on to suffer OCDs, and are irritated by the fact that you can't persuade us all to accept it. This despite your own theories never having been backed up by any valid scientific evidence, and having been disproved time and time again by the world's most highly respected neurology practitioners, scientists, researchers, academics, institutions and patients. Also in law.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you propose that:
(a) EVERY patient who begins to suffer OCDs as a result of being prescribed DAs will notice these adverse side effects early enough, and be sufficiently aware (or will become so) of their being sucked down into the OCD quicksand that they will be able, BY WILLPOWER ALONE, to pull themselves out, and get themselves off those DAs.
(b) Because you say you yourself have witnessed patients who were suffering from DA-induced OCDs managing to drag themselves out of the pit and back to normality ON THEIR OWN, with no help from others, if follows that ANY SUCH PATIENT could do the same.
(c) Any OCD patient who claims they CANNOT pull themselves out is either lying (because they're enjoying themselves so much they want to stay there in the "hell pit"), or is not exerting enough willpower, i.e. they're not committed, too lazy. They therefore don't deserve helping.
(d) Most OCD sufferers (ACCORDING TO YOU) become "hooked" onto specific compulsions because they either had a previous tendency that way (e.g. an occasional gambler may become an out-of-control gambler), or they had an underlying subconscious propensity towards that "hobby" of which they had previously been unaware. Patients who develop more than one compulsion (you claim) obviously must have had an underlying desire for all of them. (in my own case, having been given DAs for seven years and developing a long list of compulsions over that period, I clearly - according to you - must have had a propensity towards gambling, excessive lifestyle, hyper spending, reckless generosity, hypersexuality, cross dressing, prostitution use, fetishism, exhibitionism, hallucinations, obsessive risk-taking, punding, theft, delusions of grandeur, paranoia, violence and suicide attempts.
(e) Any OCD patient not covered by the above must have it in their genes, i.e. their propensity was inherited. Thus according to TITAN's LAW, if it's not in your genes, you are free of underlying propensities and you have strong willpower, OCDs can never be a problem to you.
Goldengirl and I, plus many, many others, have been to hell and back with DA/OCDs, and know what we're talking about. Yes, some lucky patients may have been only part-way stuck in the quicksand, or have been born with superhuman strength and/or willpower. and managed to drag themselves out on their own. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE can just step out of the hole and resume their lives where they left off. To believe this is the most naive and simplistic claim I think I've ever heard. Anyone who follows that line is demonstrating a stunning ignorance of OCDs of galactic proportions.
All those divorces, family break-ups, homes lost, millions of pounds wasted, car chases, trips to the police station or psycho ward, appearances in court, barristers, professors, personality destruction in the press. And all we needed to do was use a bit more willpower.
Silly me!
(1) Just because Goldengirl chose to use the word manifesto you've managed to use this to go off at a pointless tangent in the middle of the night and ramble on about politics. You know very well this thread is not about that.
Let's just replace the word manifesto with some harmless phrase like Terms of Reference, or any other which meets your pedantic approval, and continue sensibly.
(2) Despite having been a Councillor in the past you imply that I am being politically-minded here, and that I am proposing a manifesto to preach my views for my own end. I have clearly laid out my goals here, and would be grateful if you could point out exactly where I demonstrate political-mindedness, preach, or do anything for my own ends.
(3) You also imply that I have in some way denied people their right to freedom of speech, or to have an opinion of their own. Again, show me where.
(4) You inform us that a list of rules is not for you. Fair enough, let's remove all the lists of rules then, shall we? All those created by Parliament over the last 300 years? Employees' rights? Pension accrual? Soccer with no rulebook would be brilliant, ditto boxing. You go live in such a world, Titan - we'll stay here, thanks! My post was merely an attempt to explain where I'm "at", why I'm so passionate about the cause. I've simply been there, and am doing my best to prevent others doing the same.
(5) The underlying problem between you and us is that rather than accept the facts as agreed all around the PD world, you cling on to your own theories about DA takers who then go on to suffer OCDs, and are irritated by the fact that you can't persuade us all to accept it. This despite your own theories never having been backed up by any valid scientific evidence, and having been disproved time and time again by the world's most highly respected neurology practitioners, scientists, researchers, academics, institutions and patients. Also in law.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you propose that:
(a) EVERY patient who begins to suffer OCDs as a result of being prescribed DAs will notice these adverse side effects early enough, and be sufficiently aware (or will become so) of their being sucked down into the OCD quicksand that they will be able, BY WILLPOWER ALONE, to pull themselves out, and get themselves off those DAs.
(b) Because you say you yourself have witnessed patients who were suffering from DA-induced OCDs managing to drag themselves out of the pit and back to normality ON THEIR OWN, with no help from others, if follows that ANY SUCH PATIENT could do the same.
(c) Any OCD patient who claims they CANNOT pull themselves out is either lying (because they're enjoying themselves so much they want to stay there in the "hell pit"), or is not exerting enough willpower, i.e. they're not committed, too lazy. They therefore don't deserve helping.
(d) Most OCD sufferers (ACCORDING TO YOU) become "hooked" onto specific compulsions because they either had a previous tendency that way (e.g. an occasional gambler may become an out-of-control gambler), or they had an underlying subconscious propensity towards that "hobby" of which they had previously been unaware. Patients who develop more than one compulsion (you claim) obviously must have had an underlying desire for all of them. (in my own case, having been given DAs for seven years and developing a long list of compulsions over that period, I clearly - according to you - must have had a propensity towards gambling, excessive lifestyle, hyper spending, reckless generosity, hypersexuality, cross dressing, prostitution use, fetishism, exhibitionism, hallucinations, obsessive risk-taking, punding, theft, delusions of grandeur, paranoia, violence and suicide attempts.
(e) Any OCD patient not covered by the above must have it in their genes, i.e. their propensity was inherited. Thus according to TITAN's LAW, if it's not in your genes, you are free of underlying propensities and you have strong willpower, OCDs can never be a problem to you.
Goldengirl and I, plus many, many others, have been to hell and back with DA/OCDs, and know what we're talking about. Yes, some lucky patients may have been only part-way stuck in the quicksand, or have been born with superhuman strength and/or willpower. and managed to drag themselves out on their own. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE can just step out of the hole and resume their lives where they left off. To believe this is the most naive and simplistic claim I think I've ever heard. Anyone who follows that line is demonstrating a stunning ignorance of OCDs of galactic proportions.
All those divorces, family break-ups, homes lost, millions of pounds wasted, car chases, trips to the police station or psycho ward, appearances in court, barristers, professors, personality destruction in the press. And all we needed to do was use a bit more willpower.
Silly me!
Just a quick item to add, for newcomers:
(f) Titan and his followers refuse to believe what has been proven both scientifically and in law, that patients under the full influence of DA-induced OCDs will lose all self-control, willpower and free will.
The normal day-to-day link between one's activities and rationality is temporariy disengaged by the DA, and replaced with a sort of random state of running amok. The mind, no longer in control, fills the thought processes with haywire thoughts and non-decisions, hallucinations and abstract concepts, possibly like LSD. It then starts concentrating on the compulsions.
Not recommended.
Ray.
(f) Titan and his followers refuse to believe what has been proven both scientifically and in law, that patients under the full influence of DA-induced OCDs will lose all self-control, willpower and free will.
The normal day-to-day link between one's activities and rationality is temporariy disengaged by the DA, and replaced with a sort of random state of running amok. The mind, no longer in control, fills the thought processes with haywire thoughts and non-decisions, hallucinations and abstract concepts, possibly like LSD. It then starts concentrating on the compulsions.
Not recommended.
Ray.
I have just returned from my weekly session with a wonderful neuropsychologist who is helping my husband and me save our sanity after his horrendous hypersexual life of the last 3 years was uncovered.
We spent the hour looking at diagrams of the brain as she explained the changes caused by the massive overdose of Requip XL that he was prescribed...the distortion of the reward centre and the hugely inflated rewards given for risk-taking behavior..the normal functioning of the organisation region that allowed the complex lies and devious behaviour to be initiated to cover up the actions of an out of control amygdala.She made it clear that willpower cannot combat such a chemical onslaught on the brain's function and is now helping us to develop ways of drawing a line under these years and move on.
Without Ray and the others we would not have known that the DAs had caused all this and would not have fought for the drugs to be withdrawn and replaced with none DAs .We received no warning from the consultant ,didn't know of the Parkinson's nurse and began the drugs before warnings appeared in the packets.
There are others who will fall into the same pit.
Let them find the help and information they need in this forum and not face post after post of irrelevant bickering.
We spent the hour looking at diagrams of the brain as she explained the changes caused by the massive overdose of Requip XL that he was prescribed...the distortion of the reward centre and the hugely inflated rewards given for risk-taking behavior..the normal functioning of the organisation region that allowed the complex lies and devious behaviour to be initiated to cover up the actions of an out of control amygdala.She made it clear that willpower cannot combat such a chemical onslaught on the brain's function and is now helping us to develop ways of drawing a line under these years and move on.
Without Ray and the others we would not have known that the DAs had caused all this and would not have fought for the drugs to be withdrawn and replaced with none DAs .We received no warning from the consultant ,didn't know of the Parkinson's nurse and began the drugs before warnings appeared in the packets.
There are others who will fall into the same pit.
Let them find the help and information they need in this forum and not face post after post of irrelevant bickering.
Hi GG.
Thanks for the update.
Your neuropsychologist "made it clear that willpower cannot combat such a chemical onslaught on the brain's function".
That just about say it all.
Take care,
Ray.
Thanks for the update.
Your neuropsychologist "made it clear that willpower cannot combat such a chemical onslaught on the brain's function".
That just about say it all.
Take care,
Ray.
Hi G.G.
I have sympathy for what you and your husband have been through, and glad that things are better.
Of course , will power could not have been possible. You told us , he'd received a massive overdose of Requip Xl. over a 3 yr period.
You have been badly let down by the people who were responsible for your husband's Parkinsons management. There is no dispute about this.
I wish you both well.
I have sympathy for what you and your husband have been through, and glad that things are better.
Of course , will power could not have been possible. You told us , he'd received a massive overdose of Requip Xl. over a 3 yr period.
You have been badly let down by the people who were responsible for your husband's Parkinsons management. There is no dispute about this.
I wish you both well.
Hi,
There have been many extreme cases of amazing feats demonstrating the amazing things the brain can accomplish.There are no boundaries,most of the brains power remains untapped.
Referring to LSD.Well this is quite different to the gradual introduction of DA,s now.I am talking about now,not in the past.Pwp who are gradually upping the dosage like myself.The compulsions just don,t hit you like a sledgehammer blow with a massive LSD style introduction.Warning signs will be gradually experienced and help can be sought if you have researched(as everyone today should),and WANT to do something about it.
I personally know someone who is seriously ill through Alcohol.He knows what he is doing and wants to end his life that way.All help has been thrown at him,including hospitalisation.However,he shuns the help.He could have turned a corner years ago but something in his personality/being makes him carry on drinking knowing he will die.
Choices are made.The leaflets are there,the internet is here,past experiences are learnt from.Awareness leads to early intervention if adversely affected.If some people bury their heads in the sand and disregard advice is that the drugs fault or their own.
Continually going on about the past,over and over.Things have changed and despite opposing insistence,people are made aware now of danger signs.This is now in the present,if only we could go back in time and change things,but we can,t.
I believe as things stand now pwp taking DA,s have the will power,knowledge,understanding,self control and awareness to realise during a gradual introduction,when things are not right.In much the same way as somebody taking DA,s will get in touch with either their Neuro,pd Nurse,Doctor or perhaps this forum when the medication is having no effect or there is no relief of symptoms.
Not Rocket science,not on another planet,out of this world.Just pure common sense.
All the best
Titan.
There have been many extreme cases of amazing feats demonstrating the amazing things the brain can accomplish.There are no boundaries,most of the brains power remains untapped.
Referring to LSD.Well this is quite different to the gradual introduction of DA,s now.I am talking about now,not in the past.Pwp who are gradually upping the dosage like myself.The compulsions just don,t hit you like a sledgehammer blow with a massive LSD style introduction.Warning signs will be gradually experienced and help can be sought if you have researched(as everyone today should),and WANT to do something about it.
I personally know someone who is seriously ill through Alcohol.He knows what he is doing and wants to end his life that way.All help has been thrown at him,including hospitalisation.However,he shuns the help.He could have turned a corner years ago but something in his personality/being makes him carry on drinking knowing he will die.
Choices are made.The leaflets are there,the internet is here,past experiences are learnt from.Awareness leads to early intervention if adversely affected.If some people bury their heads in the sand and disregard advice is that the drugs fault or their own.
Continually going on about the past,over and over.Things have changed and despite opposing insistence,people are made aware now of danger signs.This is now in the present,if only we could go back in time and change things,but we can,t.
I believe as things stand now pwp taking DA,s have the will power,knowledge,understanding,self control and awareness to realise during a gradual introduction,when things are not right.In much the same way as somebody taking DA,s will get in touch with either their Neuro,pd Nurse,Doctor or perhaps this forum when the medication is having no effect or there is no relief of symptoms.
Not Rocket science,not on another planet,out of this world.Just pure common sense.
All the best
Titan.
Titan, oh Titan. You stick to your old position that PwP with DA/OCDs can resolve their situation with willpower, despite GG's neuropsychologist explaining very clearly that "willpower cannot combat such a chemical onslaught on the brain's function". Why do you not hear?
You make simple statements about OCDs hitting the patient gradually, and not like a sledgehammer - presumably based on the experiences of these friends of yours - and then extrapolate this dubious "information" into broad conclusions about how ALL such patients must therefore react in exactly the same way.
The fact that you yourself have never experienced this condition, but are just making wild guesses upon which to base your pronouncements, comes shining through like a beacon.
The comparison with alcohol is just plain daft. To compare how alcohol and DAs interact with the brain is like comparing a rock to a badger.
I still regularly receive new contacts from/about patients who, like me, were first prescribed DAs before anything was known about side effects, and since then no-one has ever contacted them about the issue. Such folk are aware that in some way their mind has become unbalanced, but they have no idea how or why. Usually after several years they are now mere shadows of their former selves, and much of their lives will have crumbled away.
At the other end of the scale I hear from the newly diagnosed, many of whom are STILL being prescribed DAs with NO warnings whatsover.
These are all REAL people with REAL problems, RIGHT NOW, and I'm doing my best to help them. They're NOT, as you suggest, old cases from the past, no longer with any relevance. You couldn't be more wrong.
Meanwhile I'll let my professorial friends know that it's all just "common sense". Gosh, they WILL be relieved!
Ray.
You make simple statements about OCDs hitting the patient gradually, and not like a sledgehammer - presumably based on the experiences of these friends of yours - and then extrapolate this dubious "information" into broad conclusions about how ALL such patients must therefore react in exactly the same way.
The fact that you yourself have never experienced this condition, but are just making wild guesses upon which to base your pronouncements, comes shining through like a beacon.
The comparison with alcohol is just plain daft. To compare how alcohol and DAs interact with the brain is like comparing a rock to a badger.
I still regularly receive new contacts from/about patients who, like me, were first prescribed DAs before anything was known about side effects, and since then no-one has ever contacted them about the issue. Such folk are aware that in some way their mind has become unbalanced, but they have no idea how or why. Usually after several years they are now mere shadows of their former selves, and much of their lives will have crumbled away.
At the other end of the scale I hear from the newly diagnosed, many of whom are STILL being prescribed DAs with NO warnings whatsover.
These are all REAL people with REAL problems, RIGHT NOW, and I'm doing my best to help them. They're NOT, as you suggest, old cases from the past, no longer with any relevance. You couldn't be more wrong.
Meanwhile I'll let my professorial friends know that it's all just "common sense". Gosh, they WILL be relieved!
Ray.
Quote "This is a re-post of one I sent at 14:16 today, from which the moderator had removed a few badly-chosen lines at top and bottom. In this version I have reinstated those lines, but have chosen my words more carefully.) unquote
Have some members now sunk so low that they copy their post elsewhere knowing that it will be deleted here by the mods, ony to reinstate it after the mods have removed it in part or in whole.
In all my years of internet and visiting/posting on forums, never have i seen such blantant miss-use of ones privalege to post, and show a total disregard for forum guidelines. and the moderator system.
The lengths some people go to to get there twisted message across is really quite disgracefull !!
Been away for a few days, hence the reason for not posting this earliar.
Have some members now sunk so low that they copy their post elsewhere knowing that it will be deleted here by the mods, ony to reinstate it after the mods have removed it in part or in whole.
In all my years of internet and visiting/posting on forums, never have i seen such blantant miss-use of ones privalege to post, and show a total disregard for forum guidelines. and the moderator system.
The lengths some people go to to get there twisted message across is really quite disgracefull !!
Been away for a few days, hence the reason for not posting this earliar.
Here goes, this is my appeal for common sense and goodwill to prevail.
Can we please allow this thread to be used for people who are concerned by OCD side effects, and wish to share their stories, experiences, concerns or seek the opinions of others who were/are affected?
This thread is currently in danger of going the way of every other thread on this subject.
titan, the points you make in your daily posts are noted. As to Ray, is the well documented story of what happened to you. So please please can we not turn this thread in to a battle ground once again.
Let common sense win this time.
Regards
bluey
Can we please allow this thread to be used for people who are concerned by OCD side effects, and wish to share their stories, experiences, concerns or seek the opinions of others who were/are affected?
This thread is currently in danger of going the way of every other thread on this subject.
titan, the points you make in your daily posts are noted. As to Ray, is the well documented story of what happened to you. So please please can we not turn this thread in to a battle ground once again.
Let common sense win this time.
Regards
bluey
My advice to Ray would be, do not fall into the trap of being riled by those who cannot see what is in front of them. Some people just will never except others opinions, even if they are reinstated by fact. Simply get on with the thread and ignore the ignorance, there is no point in getting yourself suspended from the forum, that's just what some people may want.
Glenchass
Glenchass
Hi all
Is there anyone out there willing to discus OCD
K9JLK
Is there anyone out there willing to discus OCD
K9JLK
"Is there anyone out there willing to discus OCD "
Is there anyone out there who is willing to admit that OCD's exist in most of the population in some form or other, and these people DO NOT have Parkinsons, and their condition is NOT a result of taking DA's!
Is there anyone out there who is willing to admit that OCD's exist in most of the population in some form or other, and these people DO NOT have Parkinsons, and their condition is NOT a result of taking DA's!
hi
OCD does exist but not in most of the population
what i believe this forum exists for is to discus OCD brought on by DA's
This Thread Is for Persons with Parkinsons who have or had OCD
Where You are coming from is pure Argumental
K9JLK
OCD does exist but not in most of the population
what i believe this forum exists for is to discus OCD brought on by DA's
This Thread Is for Persons with Parkinsons who have or had OCD
Where You are coming from is pure Argumental
K9JLK
Most people think that addiction is a problem for a minority of the population. It's "those people," and certainly not me. But suppose that addiction is something more to do with the way our brains are wired than any particular substance that people abuse?
Statistically, about 10% of the population is alcoholic. Probably another 10% are addicted to either street drugs (cocaine, marijuana, methamphetamine, etc.) or prescription drugs (pain pills, tranquilizers, amphetamines or other stimulants prescribed for ADHD, etc.). So we have about 20 of the population accounted for with addictive substances.
But addiction is not limited to just substances. Many alcoholics or drug addicts get clean and sober and their addiction grabs onto a new source of gratification: food, sex, gambling, shopping, video games or other screen addictions, hoarding or other compulsive behaviors can be just as addictive as any mind altering substance. So can compulsive working, compulsive and impulsive angry and violent behavior, or taking care of others to the detriment of ourselves (also known as codependency). It is likely that at least 50 to 70% of the general population has compulsive behavior in one or more of these areas. For some, this is the original focus of their addictive tendency - perhaps they never really got hooked on a substance but instead were drawn to one of these behavioral addictions.
If we include these other non-substance addictions, there are not too many people who are not affected. Some people are addicted to being right, or proving that others are wrong. This is one of the teachings of Buddhism and other spiritual paths that originated in Asia - that the cause of our suffering as humans is our "attachment" - we could as easily refer to it as addiction - to our view of the way things are and the discrepancy between between our view of reality and the way we think or know things "should" be.
Many people have moral judgments about people who are addicted. This is because we have been taught that the mind is supposed to be the captain of the ship. If I have a problem, I should be able to decide to do differently and then do so on my own without any help, and if I cannot make this change by myself, then I am a failure. If we cannot think our way into behaving the way we believe we should, then we either rationalize why it is not our fault (or why it is okay to continue on as we have), judge ourselves harshly and punish ourselves severely, or bounce back and forth between these two positions at different times. Even the expression we often use to describe doing something on the basis of sheer solitary willpower does not make any sense. We say, "I'll just have to pull myself up by my bootstraps." If we look at the literal image of this expression it tells us much. If you were sitting on the floor, intent upon standing up, how successful would you be if you grabbed the backs of your shoes and pulled really hard? You could do this as hard as you like, repeatedly, and the most you would do is rock back and forth on your butt very vigorously, but standing up by that method is out of the question. Thinking it so is just not enough.
If we examine the 3 sources of our behavior - thoughts, feelings, and bodily urges, we may see things differently. If I have an emotional, unreasoning urge to eat ice cream, for example, but I think that I should not eat it because I should lose weight and get healthy, it is common for the feeling to win over the idea. Similarly, if I think I should go to the gym and work out, but I really don't like to, I will become one of the people who keep health clubs in business by continuing to pay for membership but never using the facility. If my body and nervous system are set up to crave gratification but my thinking tells me that giving in to these urges is unhealthy, I will be prone to either rationalizing why it is okay "just this once," or "in moderation,"or decide that it's a good idea but I'll start tomorrow. It is clear that the body and the emotions are stronger than our thinking. Either by themselves is enough to overcome the best of mental intentions. If the body and the emotions gang up on our resolutions,we are done for. It just isn't a fair fight.
The fact is that in order to make a change, we need to do something different. Many people approach therapy with the idea that if we talk about things with a therapist for long enough, we will gain insights that will change our thoughts and feelings so that we can then do things differently. The reality is that this can take a very long time. However, if I do something differently in a planned and consistent way, even if I don't want to, even if I don't believe it will work, even if it seems "silly," it will often work. Acting differently is more likely to produce a change in our thoughts and feelings (due to the observation that if we do things differently we get a different result). This is much more often effective than focusing on our thoughts and feelings while doing the same things as we always have; although this approach has the possibility of giving us a vision of what we would like to be, at the same time it confirms that we will always get what we don't want because our actions have not changed, and doing the same actions will produce the same results time and time again.
Twelve step recovery programs sometimes get a bad rap. People think that they are cults. In fact, they are, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course, nobody in Alcoholics Anonymous or Overeaters Anonymous is offering people Jonestown suicide punch or advocating preparing to leave Earth when the alien ships arrive. Technically, a cult is a subculture, a group with its own behaviors, language and customs, different from the dominant culture. These subgroup norms in 12 step groups are the vehicle of the needed behavior change that leads to a different experience of life.
For anyone who has tried to stop addictive behavior and failed, trying something new and different is often what is needed. What have you got to lose except your inability to resist the compulsion?
Statistically, about 10% of the population is alcoholic. Probably another 10% are addicted to either street drugs (cocaine, marijuana, methamphetamine, etc.) or prescription drugs (pain pills, tranquilizers, amphetamines or other stimulants prescribed for ADHD, etc.). So we have about 20 of the population accounted for with addictive substances.
But addiction is not limited to just substances. Many alcoholics or drug addicts get clean and sober and their addiction grabs onto a new source of gratification: food, sex, gambling, shopping, video games or other screen addictions, hoarding or other compulsive behaviors can be just as addictive as any mind altering substance. So can compulsive working, compulsive and impulsive angry and violent behavior, or taking care of others to the detriment of ourselves (also known as codependency). It is likely that at least 50 to 70% of the general population has compulsive behavior in one or more of these areas. For some, this is the original focus of their addictive tendency - perhaps they never really got hooked on a substance but instead were drawn to one of these behavioral addictions.
If we include these other non-substance addictions, there are not too many people who are not affected. Some people are addicted to being right, or proving that others are wrong. This is one of the teachings of Buddhism and other spiritual paths that originated in Asia - that the cause of our suffering as humans is our "attachment" - we could as easily refer to it as addiction - to our view of the way things are and the discrepancy between between our view of reality and the way we think or know things "should" be.
Many people have moral judgments about people who are addicted. This is because we have been taught that the mind is supposed to be the captain of the ship. If I have a problem, I should be able to decide to do differently and then do so on my own without any help, and if I cannot make this change by myself, then I am a failure. If we cannot think our way into behaving the way we believe we should, then we either rationalize why it is not our fault (or why it is okay to continue on as we have), judge ourselves harshly and punish ourselves severely, or bounce back and forth between these two positions at different times. Even the expression we often use to describe doing something on the basis of sheer solitary willpower does not make any sense. We say, "I'll just have to pull myself up by my bootstraps." If we look at the literal image of this expression it tells us much. If you were sitting on the floor, intent upon standing up, how successful would you be if you grabbed the backs of your shoes and pulled really hard? You could do this as hard as you like, repeatedly, and the most you would do is rock back and forth on your butt very vigorously, but standing up by that method is out of the question. Thinking it so is just not enough.
If we examine the 3 sources of our behavior - thoughts, feelings, and bodily urges, we may see things differently. If I have an emotional, unreasoning urge to eat ice cream, for example, but I think that I should not eat it because I should lose weight and get healthy, it is common for the feeling to win over the idea. Similarly, if I think I should go to the gym and work out, but I really don't like to, I will become one of the people who keep health clubs in business by continuing to pay for membership but never using the facility. If my body and nervous system are set up to crave gratification but my thinking tells me that giving in to these urges is unhealthy, I will be prone to either rationalizing why it is okay "just this once," or "in moderation,"or decide that it's a good idea but I'll start tomorrow. It is clear that the body and the emotions are stronger than our thinking. Either by themselves is enough to overcome the best of mental intentions. If the body and the emotions gang up on our resolutions,we are done for. It just isn't a fair fight.
The fact is that in order to make a change, we need to do something different. Many people approach therapy with the idea that if we talk about things with a therapist for long enough, we will gain insights that will change our thoughts and feelings so that we can then do things differently. The reality is that this can take a very long time. However, if I do something differently in a planned and consistent way, even if I don't want to, even if I don't believe it will work, even if it seems "silly," it will often work. Acting differently is more likely to produce a change in our thoughts and feelings (due to the observation that if we do things differently we get a different result). This is much more often effective than focusing on our thoughts and feelings while doing the same things as we always have; although this approach has the possibility of giving us a vision of what we would like to be, at the same time it confirms that we will always get what we don't want because our actions have not changed, and doing the same actions will produce the same results time and time again.
Twelve step recovery programs sometimes get a bad rap. People think that they are cults. In fact, they are, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course, nobody in Alcoholics Anonymous or Overeaters Anonymous is offering people Jonestown suicide punch or advocating preparing to leave Earth when the alien ships arrive. Technically, a cult is a subculture, a group with its own behaviors, language and customs, different from the dominant culture. These subgroup norms in 12 step groups are the vehicle of the needed behavior change that leads to a different experience of life.
For anyone who has tried to stop addictive behavior and failed, trying something new and different is often what is needed. What have you got to lose except your inability to resist the compulsion?
addiction as it relates to Dopamine, there are other interesting articles before and after this one
http://www.utexas.edu/research/asrec/dopamine.html
http://www.utexas.edu/research/asrec/dopamine.html
you lot have lost the plot
you lot have lost the plot
Thank you for youur valued and informative post
...50% to 70% of the normal population have some form of OCD....
Hmmmmmm ......
Thank you for youur valued and informative post
...50% to 70% of the normal population have some form of OCD....
Hmmmmmm ......
Hi.
"Statistically, about 10% of the population is alcoholic. Probably another 10% are addicted to either street drugs.......or prescription drugs. ........ So we have about 20% of the population accounted for with addictive substances. But addiction is not limited to just substances. Many alcoholics or drug addicts ....... grab onto a new source of gratification: food, sex, gambling, shopping ....... or other compulsive behaviours can be just as addictive as any mind altering substance. So ....... it is likely that at least 50 to 70% of the general population has compulsive behaviour."
This logic is fundamentally flawed. When TV companies invent a "battle of the soaps", reporting that 13m viewers watch Eastenders compared to only 12m watching Corrie, they know that in reality the vast majority (maybe 10m) actually watch both, and there is no rivalry at all. Similarly if 10% are alcoholics and 10% are addicted to drugs I'd suggest that virtually all of them are probably the same people. You then guess at around 50% of us being hooked on other compulsions, and end up with a guesstimate of 70% of the general population having compulsive behaviour of some sort.
Personally I would only estimate 10% for the general public figure with "other" compulsions, and guess that these individuals are probably included in the alcoholic and drug figures already. So in reality those affected never exceeds 10%, which I think is being over-generous anyway.
"Normal" compulsive behaviour (e.g. gambling) amongst the general non-PD population is without doubt a very serious social and individual problem. No-one doubts how the sufferer gets overwhelmed by his/her obsession, and cannot permanently break free. Such folk need sympathy, understanding and much expert help. But much as they want to break free but cannot, they are nonetheless aware of what is going on around them, can rationalise what is happening to them, and are able to discuss their problems with friends. They are also, whilst still being driven by their compulsions, quite capable of going about their normal day-to-day activities without others being aware of their problem.
Compulsive behaviour induced by taking dopamine agonists, however, is a completely different kettle of fish - you're moving up to a completely different level now. The patient has no understanding or control of what is happening to them, and is likely to act deviously, evasively and violently. All free will has gone, and the DA/brain introduce obsessions into your mind which previously you may have found abhorrent, but which you now find exciting, rewarding, pleasurable. You then spend most of your time trying to satisfy these new desires, but you can NEVER get enough. More often than not these overwhelming cravings will need cash, and you can easily lose all of your money and assets, and then move on to crime to raise more.
So the important difference is that however bad your compulsion is, if you're a normal (non-PD) compulsive gambler (say), you retain your sanity throughout. But the PD patient suffering from DA-induced OCDs loses all normal brain/mind functionality and rationality. Believe me, some of the weird things I got up to under DAs you would never see in a non-PD compulsive gambler!
Ray.
"Statistically, about 10% of the population is alcoholic. Probably another 10% are addicted to either street drugs.......or prescription drugs. ........ So we have about 20% of the population accounted for with addictive substances. But addiction is not limited to just substances. Many alcoholics or drug addicts ....... grab onto a new source of gratification: food, sex, gambling, shopping ....... or other compulsive behaviours can be just as addictive as any mind altering substance. So ....... it is likely that at least 50 to 70% of the general population has compulsive behaviour."
This logic is fundamentally flawed. When TV companies invent a "battle of the soaps", reporting that 13m viewers watch Eastenders compared to only 12m watching Corrie, they know that in reality the vast majority (maybe 10m) actually watch both, and there is no rivalry at all. Similarly if 10% are alcoholics and 10% are addicted to drugs I'd suggest that virtually all of them are probably the same people. You then guess at around 50% of us being hooked on other compulsions, and end up with a guesstimate of 70% of the general population having compulsive behaviour of some sort.
Personally I would only estimate 10% for the general public figure with "other" compulsions, and guess that these individuals are probably included in the alcoholic and drug figures already. So in reality those affected never exceeds 10%, which I think is being over-generous anyway.
"Normal" compulsive behaviour (e.g. gambling) amongst the general non-PD population is without doubt a very serious social and individual problem. No-one doubts how the sufferer gets overwhelmed by his/her obsession, and cannot permanently break free. Such folk need sympathy, understanding and much expert help. But much as they want to break free but cannot, they are nonetheless aware of what is going on around them, can rationalise what is happening to them, and are able to discuss their problems with friends. They are also, whilst still being driven by their compulsions, quite capable of going about their normal day-to-day activities without others being aware of their problem.
Compulsive behaviour induced by taking dopamine agonists, however, is a completely different kettle of fish - you're moving up to a completely different level now. The patient has no understanding or control of what is happening to them, and is likely to act deviously, evasively and violently. All free will has gone, and the DA/brain introduce obsessions into your mind which previously you may have found abhorrent, but which you now find exciting, rewarding, pleasurable. You then spend most of your time trying to satisfy these new desires, but you can NEVER get enough. More often than not these overwhelming cravings will need cash, and you can easily lose all of your money and assets, and then move on to crime to raise more.
So the important difference is that however bad your compulsion is, if you're a normal (non-PD) compulsive gambler (say), you retain your sanity throughout. But the PD patient suffering from DA-induced OCDs loses all normal brain/mind functionality and rationality. Believe me, some of the weird things I got up to under DAs you would never see in a non-PD compulsive gambler!
Ray.