We need to talk about talking

Hi Drobb

Thank you so much for being very open in your comments.

I want to be really clear that this thread is not about any individual user or even about re visiting the past history of the community. Rather our focus is to participate in a conversation to help all of us contribute to thinking about how to shape our collective experiences toward something positive.

There have been some really helplful comments made and personally I find the willingness of everybody who has contributed to try to think about how we can make this space work for everybody who visits is really inspiring

A big thank you to everybody


Tim




Another thought?

Maybe we can have a section, clearly marked, that is outside the normal rules of the forum. This will allow members who feel they have an issue to vent their spleen and not upset the rest of the population who like the more gentle way.

This 'Bunfight' zone would come with a warning to be careful and don't enter or post unless they can take the pressure.

I think that no good can ever become of censorship, especially on the internet.


Chris
Hi Drobb,
Thanks for writing. It looks like you’ve had a lot of frustration with the “shenanigans” as you call them.

You’ve raised a point here that I think is really important—

This thread is definitely not intended to be about one person or one situation--and you're right, I would feel pretty awful if I thought that I was being discussed in this way.

Actually, the whole reason why I opened it is to start a conversation with the community about what kind of space we want.

You probably already know that we’ll need to change the forum over to a new system this year. You might also have noticed that we’re taking this opportunity to change how we’ve all been relating to each other—including us!

I’m hoping that instead of writing some rules and putting them here and then insisting from the office that everyone just follows them, that our guidelines and issues that arise here are something that we discuss as a community.

As a part of this, I thought we could start by talking about this issue which as I said in the first message is a pretty big one for online communities.

It’s not always that a personal attack is intended as one. Sometimes people feel passionate about an issue, or feel like they’re defending themselves or temporarily forget that it’s the issue, not the person that we’re discussing (see my excellent cat example in the first post. It’s in italics. :-)

I can see why you tend to skim threads like this one, but if you have a chance, do take a look at this one.

You’ve been in the community for almost a year and it would be great to hear how you think we could do better and how we can deal with this issue so everyone feels like they’re about to enter a room where they’ll be treated with respect every time they log in here.
Hi spam95,

This is a good idea and I think you’ve raised it before.

I wonder if you would be happy to park it for a bit? What I’m thinking is that we should have more tools to work with later in the year and then we’d be in a better place to discuss how we would go about this. Would that be okay?

It’s also a good day to raise the issue of internet censorship(will Wikipedia disappear today?).

I think this is also something we’ll come back to in the future. The thing is that because this is a space which is provided by the charity, we have to have rules for behaviour and if someone complains about being attacked or bullied, we have to take steps to address it. We’re responsible for what happens here.

While we’re on Wikipedia, take a look again at the link in the first post—even on that site posts that attack others are removed.
Please forgive me for my ignorance about forums. I personally have had no problems with any posters or any form of moderation on this the only forum with which I have been involved.
On the contrary, I have received nothing but support. Possibly because I withdraw with alacrity from any form of what appears to me to be personal attacks , be they subtle or overt. Maybe I am not being supportive enough? Or just plain naive?
I should just like to know the answers to a couple of things. Namely :
Why, if forum members feel that they are being bullied/persecuted or attacked, do they keep coming back for more?
I appreciate that it is their right to do so should they choose, but we are not school children, obliged to attend. We can ignore those who from past experience we feel may offend
I should also like to know how the PUK forum moderators are appointed? Is it self-appointment, by PUK appointment or by membership nomination?
Please forgive me for my ignorance about forums. I personally have had no problems with any posters or any form of moderation on this the only forum with which I have been involved.
On the contrary, I have received nothing but support. Possibly because I withdraw with alacrity from any form of what appears to me to be personal attacks , be they subtle or overt. Maybe I am not being supportive enough? Or just plain naive?
I should just like to know the answers to a couple of things. Namely :
Why, if forum members feel that they are being bullied/persecuted or attacked, do they keep coming back for more?
I appreciate that it is their right to do so should they choose, but we are not school children, obliged to attend. We can ignore those who from past experience we feel may offend
I should also like to know how the PUK forum moderators are appointed? Is it self-appointment, by PUK appointment or by membership nomination?
Hi, annebernadette

I think you make some very important comments and it is true that people need to find ways to protect themselves and find strategies that avoid them getting wound up by others' comments. Everyone on this forum is an adult so personal responsibility is essential.

Saying that, of course, it's important we don't leave it all at people's own feet as it would be awful if people felt that they had to stop using the forum because they didn't feel they could protect themselves and also didn't feel support was available to protect them... As Ezinda mentioned in a previous post already, because Parkinson's UK hosts this forum, the organisation also has a responsibility and duty of care towards the members and users. And this is really an important part of ensuring everyone is free to use the valuable service. But, indeed, they has to be a balance between that and personal strategies or responsibility. And maybe we could consider setting up a little 'tips' section for how to deal with issues that can crop up on the forum and how users can help themselves. I'm sure many members of the forum community already use lots of strategies and would have great ideas for such a 'tips' document or section.

In terms of recruitment of moderators, these roles are primarily recruited like any other in the organisation - based on need, then a full job description and person specification that is agreed on. We then recruit form a pool of candidates, based on their previous experience and skills.

Do you have any ideas or thoughts about the appointment of forum moderators?

Thanks

Luis
I have not much experience of on line blogs like this, although have loads of experience of facilitating groups face to face and would like to say I think the way this is being handled if really good. Of course there has to be some sort of ground rules and someone making sure we all stick to those and dont hurt each other. Everyone on here is suffering and when you suffer you sometimes sound off and hurt someone else.I like the idea that if someone keeps offending our moderators will gently take them aside and help them understand what is a helpful and unhelpful response on a site like this. Would hate to think that anyone got cut off and felt couldnt use the site. Think our moderators know how to deal with it sunray
Hi Tim & Ezinda,

Thanks for your replies. Firstly i'd like to say that i like and agree that the moderators have 'come forward as part of the community' so to speak and are sharing your thoughts with us as well as reminding us of the underlying rules & regs set out to protect us all. :)

As a suggestion (think i may have put this forward before re setting up re-vamped forum) is it possible for a pop up direct chat line to be added as used by Facebook so that when heated discussions/different view points can be switched and shared directly between individuals if (they choose) rather than vent this on the general forum? Or as Spam95 suggested advise the community that the thread has been shifted to a 'red alert' only enter if you feel the need column!! :fearful:

As you say i've been using this forum for almost a year now and use it for information, support and advice oh and the odd word game!:grin:

As Annebernadette says i don't reply or tend to generally get involved in threads that appear to contain personal attacks or start getting involved and heated as i just can't be bothered with them hence why i skim through them.

My main experience of this forum has been just like you hope - one of walking through a door and being invited in to a warm safe environment.:smile:

Long may it continue :smile:

Keep talking

Diane
Hi I just want to say thanks to the moderators for keeping us informed. I myself have only joined the forum in the last six months and only recently plucked up the courage to join in. I must admit i have read quite a few snappy remarks over the time which did put me off slightly, but I know we all suffer "bad days" and can say things we shouldn`t. I do find some of the remarks rather amusing and like another member said we don`t have to reply to a negative comment just ignore it (i know easier said than done).

Thanks for introducing yourselves,

keep up the good work,

Big C
as a new member of the forum i feel the instructions as very clear. as with every form of discussion disagreements can happen but when posting you need to think how you would feel getting your reply. Personal obuse should not be tolerated.
Hi,
I think heated debate is sometimes important to get to the bottom of certain issues.As in everyday life,things are said in Ernest and later regretted.With Parkinsons,especially when considering medication,feelings and emotions can run riot.It is hard to control the impulse to post when riled by one previous.Sometimes spiteful things are said that hurt.Often,they are retracted later,as the individuals concerned shake hands with apologies all round.
If I had a pound for all the spiteful things my Wife had said to me,I would be a rich man.It is a natural part of everyday life.I do agree however that boundaries are needed.It is a very grey area though.I have been hurt recently by things said which were not a personal attack.Others would not notice.To me though,those words were more hurtful and damaging than any open verbal insults I have had before.
To deal with confrontation and move on,is part of life itself.We cannot walk around in a protective bubble.We are all adults and I worry about over Censorship.I am in the same camp as Spam95.
The following poem is not meant to be personal,just a flow of thoughts which I would like to throw in the mix.Or will they be deleted?Impulsiveness gets the better of me,so
Thoughts-censorship
-----------------------------
Sit back now and scan the Horizon
Discussions on which way to go
Concerned about freedom of speech here
Deep emotions left hidden will grow

If not given a suitable platform
With views stiffled before they are raised
Is it not just a common sense jigsaw
Though the intentions have got to be praised

Many points raised in this thread of discussion
Round in circles all friendly and nice
To let go and cause upset,it happens
Feelings change with the roll of each dice

To explore the real torment that's hidden
Expand to the depths of one's soul
Censored,fretting over whether to post,then
Leaves words unspoken left in a dark hole

As long as not dealt with nasty intent
Or with deep personal insult inciting
Words here full of passion and meaning
Should not hinder this forum uniting

Does a Teacher sit with their pupils
Does a vicar come and preach at your house
Would you air all your views as you usually would
Or think twice,then sit quiet as a Mouse

Moderation is fine from a distance
To know help there when needed is calming
But to be told what to say and what not to
I find ever so slightly alarming

In agreement with comments from Spam 95
A special place or a room to sound off
If you don,t like the heat then don,t venture
Stay safe,though afraid still to cough

Just a view from a different direction
I'm a believer in freedom of speech
Sometimes it takes really strong words that upset
To reveal thoughts we are struggling to reach
Titan
Post removed.
titan ,i think that poem ,is very to the point,very well laid out:smile:ive always belived in free speech me self as long as swear words were not involved,and personal attacks on one member who can not cope with wot is bein aimed at them.this is wehn other members involve them selfs,and try to protect.but i feel this is were moderaterion should be stepped up and not left to get that far,so the situation then becomes so hurtful to the aimed person that there left in dispear of wot to do.i feel now the moderstaers are now more out in the open ,so to speak and not behind the sceens,it makes members more confident and feel freer to post.ive noticed over the last couple of weeks puk has had lot more members join, and older members have returned,moderaters are joinin in with members becomin freinds ,not just invisible.and the forum is bein run more smoother now.tputtin a thread up for just debates has been done before i think,and then hard to moderate,of how far to let the debate get before things have to be said.reportin posts and deletin posts became ahuge thing also,which then turned away new members and other members from wontin to post.i no everyone nows ive had issues aimed at me,but im not the only one ,people just dont wont to see it.it is easy to say igore when ur bein aimed at,and nothin else is bein done about it,u feel depressed,upset,lost and wonderin why me.this is why i feel now the moderstaers are about,and were all movin forward with puk its goin to be amuch happier place to visit.its hard to stop people from sayin things to others if there not breakin no rules,but words can still hurt,and if people are sufferein with med problems or there pd is bad,or even if there just havin a bad day in general,but this is when we need to try and be a community ,and sit back and think before we post wot the other members are feelin.the forum in the past has got its self a bad name cus of debates,and im hopin that 2012 is the year that we all look in to the future and join hands as a community and just try abit harder,i no im no saint,no one is,but ive learned these last couple of weeks to ignore,and its been damn hard for me to do so,but ive done it,and im proud of me self,:smile:
ok by me if post removed , not fussed,dont waste time on it. :grin:
Hi turnip,
Thanks for that.

We've written to you by email about this. Do let us know if you have any questions.

Ezinda
On dear Ezinda and moderators.....I have no idea what Turnip said, but I worry that you have , once again, chosen to censor.

If we can't talk about talking, what's the point?

I feel that this whole exercise is not a debate, but a confirmation of your thoughts.

I feel that this thread, of all the threads, should be free of moderation.

Chris
Titan, your message in verse speaks for me. I didn’t catch Turnip’s reply, so I can’t form my own opinion on whether or not it should have been deleted.

I don’t hold with personal insults and I abhor bullying but, sometimes, contributing to this forum feels like treading on eggshells. It seems to me that the new rule is that we can submit any views we like as long as they are the ‘right’ views, ie so mild that we can be certain we haven’t upset anyone in the entire ether.

I think someone else said: “It’s not what we say, it’s how we say it.” I agree. In my view, it’s the job of the moderators to maintain politeness among posters, not to stifle debate by using Big Brother censorship.

Chris is right; this whole thread has felt like naval-gazing from the start.
Hi Titan, Spam95 and Lily,
I am sorry to hear that you both haven’t found this exercise useful. We do welcome your thoughts on how we can have this type of chat in a way that is less like “navel gazing”.

If you take a look back at the first post, the aim was to get down thoughts about whether the community thought that we were dealing with personal attacks appropriately.

It seems that there are some on the forum who feel that posts should never be removed on the forum. There are also those who feel that attacks on others should be removed.

Lily, you say “In my view, it’s the job of the moderators to maintain politeness among posters, not to stifle debate by using Big Brother censorship.”

I wonder whether you might have suggestions on how we might strike this balance?n How would you suggest we maintain politeness while never removing posts?

What would be the right action for moderators to take if there is a situation where, a community member was named and was accused of something very negative here in a very public manner?
Hi Ezinda

You ask for a suggestion on how to maintain politeness: how about a simple “I find that comment to be impolite. What does everyone else think?” That way, everyone gets a say, including the person who made the comment. It could be that they are not good with words and would like to re-phrase the comment. Or perhaps they didn’t realise they were being impolite until it was pointed out to them. On the other hand, removing a comment takes away all control from forum users because they have usually had no chance to read it in the first place.

PS Note to self regarding my previous message: must use the spell checker! :flushed: