Oops, something has gone wrong pasting the text from my wordprocessor. a passage was lost (BOLD):
You are able to move but it just isn’t what it used to be.
You say PD has to do with clustering of alpha-synuclein. That in turn could have something to do with oxidative stress. This is a different level of investigating PD where you need a certain level of education. If you don´t have that education it is difficult to participate of course.
So you ignore what is really happening and let everyone 'participate' in pretend?
A different approach or viewpoint doesn’t mean you ignore what is really happening. The same reality van have several layers, several levels of abstraction. Do you know the The Open Systems Interconnection model (OSI model)? ==========================================
OSI model!!!(yes we have a close but chilly relationship for 20 years)
But I give up,I have been cudgelled to wooly-headiness by one last monumental (emphasis on the last two syllables)analogy. Is the tomato sauce an application or a presentation, no the latter is the parsley bouquet, aaaargh.
I know what dualism is, duh. I also know you are netherlandish hence the underhand reference to heinekin (did you do that on purpose!).
But I feel myself begining to agree...Eck say something ribald before...no its too late. I... like Joop. Noooooooooooo.
I look forward to the video. Trilling met Joop (is that right, sounds like something for budgies.
I wouldn't be surprised if we can get power plates on the NHS next.
By the way my chum Michael Fox and I have both noticed the temporary benefits of showers on movement (not at the same time of course)how does that fit into your model?
cheers
But I give up,I have been cudgelled to wooly-headiness by one last monumental (emphasis on the last two syllables)analogy. Is the tomato sauce an application or a presentation, no the latter is the parsley bouquet, aaaargh.
I know what dualism is, duh. I also know you are netherlandish hence the underhand reference to heinekin (did you do that on purpose!).
But I feel myself begining to agree...Eck say something ribald before...no its too late. I... like Joop. Noooooooooooo.
I look forward to the video. Trilling met Joop (is that right, sounds like something for budgies.
I wouldn't be surprised if we can get power plates on the NHS next.
By the way my chum Michael Fox and I have both noticed the temporary benefits of showers on movement (not at the same time of course)how does that fit into your model?
cheers
Tumsh, I'm here, how can I help ... puff ... pant ... puff
Sorry my ribald days are over. Following my metaphorical bare bottomed over the knee spanking by the mods following my last bout of ribaldry I have been advised to catch a grip and give oneself a good shake. Lest I would be on the receiving end of a metaphoric beating with a leather studded baffie.
This thread has taught me, that if I run I don't fall as often.
However can you tell me how to stop softly.
Other than that I have not got the foggiest. So enjoy whatever it is your all blethering aboot.
Sorry my ribald days are over. Following my metaphorical bare bottomed over the knee spanking by the mods following my last bout of ribaldry I have been advised to catch a grip and give oneself a good shake. Lest I would be on the receiving end of a metaphoric beating with a leather studded baffie.
This thread has taught me, that if I run I don't fall as often.
However can you tell me how to stop softly.
Other than that I have not got the foggiest. So enjoy whatever it is your all blethering aboot.
your ribaldry will be missed, at least by me, which reminds me i must open my email one day.
run into the nearest quicksand pool, you'll soon slow down...
fritters: my dear old mum was a terrible cook. tried hard,but....i remember the first time we had tomato sauce added to the mince - sophistication! And the time an exploding haggis blew open the oven door. slices of macaroni cheese-the national dish. ah its all coming back - heartburn usually.
blethering: on the other hand she could blether for scotland. we all have our strengths and weaknesses. except for those people who dont.
run into the nearest quicksand pool, you'll soon slow down...
fritters: my dear old mum was a terrible cook. tried hard,but....i remember the first time we had tomato sauce added to the mince - sophistication! And the time an exploding haggis blew open the oven door. slices of macaroni cheese-the national dish. ah its all coming back - heartburn usually.
blethering: on the other hand she could blether for scotland. we all have our strengths and weaknesses. except for those people who dont.
... which way to QUICKSAND p..l ... WHOOSH 
CRASH ... BANG ... TINKLE ... WALLOP ... Doesn't ... matter ...
mums: It was pizza beans and Glasgow salad (chips) for us day after day after day.
CRASH ... BANG ... TINKLE ... WALLOP ... Doesn't ... matter ...
mums: It was pizza beans and Glasgow salad (chips) for us day after day after day.
La nostalgie n'est plus ce qu'elle etait
sounds better in french when Simone Signoret says it.
wait a mo, theres a limerick waiting to be plucked!
and theres no better limerick plucker than I!
now where is joop to get this thread back on track!
sounds better in french when Simone Signoret says it.
wait a mo, theres a limerick waiting to be plucked!
and theres no better limerick plucker than I!
now where is joop to get this thread back on track!
By 'eck, youse have it guys, quicksand! - it's the perfect analogy to my emic analysis of the way I feel about my PD at the moment. Heavy limbs dragging through a heavy sandy soup, that sinking feeling accompanied by the ever present feeling of doom. I'm about to launch a thesis that states that PD sufferers are surrounded by an invisible force field which has the characteristics of quicksand!
The common finding of other Parkies reported at the start of the thread, that during the night or early morning they are symptom free for a while, suggests that the force rests like we do and hasn't quite woken up! This adds strength to my theory!
No wonder research hasn't found The Force - it's invisible! It's not neurologists and biochemists we require - we need to enlist the help of physicists - come on egg heads, you could crack this in five years (don't forget to mention old Grey in your Nobel prize acceptance speech).
Joop, isn't this the danger of applying the emic approach to oneself - you lose objectivity, facts are moulded to agree with pet theories and analogies become theories of the systems they were intended to illustrate?
The common finding of other Parkies reported at the start of the thread, that during the night or early morning they are symptom free for a while, suggests that the force rests like we do and hasn't quite woken up! This adds strength to my theory!
No wonder research hasn't found The Force - it's invisible! It's not neurologists and biochemists we require - we need to enlist the help of physicists - come on egg heads, you could crack this in five years (don't forget to mention old Grey in your Nobel prize acceptance speech).
Joop, isn't this the danger of applying the emic approach to oneself - you lose objectivity, facts are moulded to agree with pet theories and analogies become theories of the systems they were intended to illustrate?
I just wondered if I am the only person who has no idea what this thread is about?
It just seems to be incomprehensible rambling rubbish.
I am not usually considered stupid and am educated to degree level but cannot make any sense of any of this.
Would someone like to post in simple English what all this is about?I hate to think I am missing some great leap forward in Parkinson's research.
It just seems to be incomprehensible rambling rubbish.
I am not usually considered stupid and am educated to degree level but cannot make any sense of any of this.
Would someone like to post in simple English what all this is about?I hate to think I am missing some great leap forward in Parkinson's research.
As an eminent joopologist who has just accidentally taken a fulsome dose of ropinerole, i will try and elucidate
emic - from the point of view of the person who has pd
When you move, you have to deal with friction. The force You use to move something has to increase until the frictioncoefficient is reached. Then suddenly the force is too great and has to decrease rapidly. But an erroneous movement has already been made. The force is decreasing till suddenly there is friction again and movement stops. An example of this kind of movement is the cogwheel phenomenon. I you do the above experiment with a vibrating device attached movement becomes far more precise. I predict that on a powerplate with the right frequency, a cogwheel phenomenon will be greatly reduced. 101 words, I have already exceeded my limit
vibrations may make movements smoother?
emic - from the point of view of the person who has pd
When you move, you have to deal with friction. The force You use to move something has to increase until the frictioncoefficient is reached. Then suddenly the force is too great and has to decrease rapidly. But an erroneous movement has already been made. The force is decreasing till suddenly there is friction again and movement stops. An example of this kind of movement is the cogwheel phenomenon. I you do the above experiment with a vibrating device attached movement becomes far more precise. I predict that on a powerplate with the right frequency, a cogwheel phenomenon will be greatly reduced. 101 words, I have already exceeded my limit
vibrations may make movements smoother?
FORGIVE THE OBSERVATIONS OF A passer-by with pd for 10 yeras or years even....but behind all the pomposity and verbal rhetoric on this thread there seems to be a very straight forward and obvious premise....????
Just leave it with me for a few hours till i,ve deciphered it ..... bridget .
Just leave it with me for a few hours till i,ve deciphered it ..... bridget .
I was in doubt whether or not to continue posting in this subject. I decided to give it one more try. Hope I can avoid being caught by one of the muppets that terrorize this thread.
Think again about the concept of friction. Friction must be high in a stable rest situation and it must be low when precise movement is needed. How about other species; how do they solve this dilemma? If you look at birds or lizards you see that their movements are quite different from ours. They don’t move slow. What they do looks like flashes of movements. This can be precise enough to pick up a grain. They don’t seem to utilize friction control. As a consequence they cannot use the border area where friction is conquered, the area of slow movements.
Joop
Think again about the concept of friction. Friction must be high in a stable rest situation and it must be low when precise movement is needed. How about other species; how do they solve this dilemma? If you look at birds or lizards you see that their movements are quite different from ours. They don’t move slow. What they do looks like flashes of movements. This can be precise enough to pick up a grain. They don’t seem to utilize friction control. As a consequence they cannot use the border area where friction is conquered, the area of slow movements.
Joop
Dear Yope,
I fear you might include me as a terrorising muppet as I find it hard to agree with your coclusions. I hope not.
My first post on this subject parodied what I see as dangers of the emic approach as implemented by yourself in this thread; the final paragraph is a question addressed directly to you. I apologise if this light hearted approach caused upset but it was actually a serious question and I would be very interested in your response.
Kind regards,
Grey
I fear you might include me as a terrorising muppet as I find it hard to agree with your coclusions. I hope not.
My first post on this subject parodied what I see as dangers of the emic approach as implemented by yourself in this thread; the final paragraph is a question addressed directly to you. I apologise if this light hearted approach caused upset but it was actually a serious question and I would be very interested in your response.
Kind regards,
Grey
Hi
This is a perfectly serious point and I admit to previous muppethood.
I have recently taken up darts. If I take my time and aim carefully, the muscles are stiff and the movement it irregular. If I take myself by surprise and throw quickly the movement is smooth and the aim better. However my theory is that a different mental circuitry is in use for 'spontaneous action' and 'intentional action'. The first does not rely on dopamine the second does. Likewise a genuine smile in response to something funny works fine but an intentional smile,eg in a social situation does not. When Dr Miller threw a ball at a person with parkinsonian poisoning on Guam, the person, normally paralysed, caught the ball - because the response was at a sub-intentional level. Similarly, when in danger,people with advanced pd can be suddenly active. Lastly running,biologically mainly used in flight, is less 'intentional' that walking and so less affected by dopamine loss.
Most of the examples you give are better explained by different levels of brain (the more primative being sounder) than your theory about friction,which i must admit is still not clear.
regards
Kermit
This is a perfectly serious point and I admit to previous muppethood.
I have recently taken up darts. If I take my time and aim carefully, the muscles are stiff and the movement it irregular. If I take myself by surprise and throw quickly the movement is smooth and the aim better. However my theory is that a different mental circuitry is in use for 'spontaneous action' and 'intentional action'. The first does not rely on dopamine the second does. Likewise a genuine smile in response to something funny works fine but an intentional smile,eg in a social situation does not. When Dr Miller threw a ball at a person with parkinsonian poisoning on Guam, the person, normally paralysed, caught the ball - because the response was at a sub-intentional level. Similarly, when in danger,people with advanced pd can be suddenly active. Lastly running,biologically mainly used in flight, is less 'intentional' that walking and so less affected by dopamine loss.
Most of the examples you give are better explained by different levels of brain (the more primative being sounder) than your theory about friction,which i must admit is still not clear.
regards
Kermit
OHMY GOODNESS YOU GUYS ...i reckon that i,m not without the ability to follow argument and discussion but am feeling totally confused by all the words being used...lol
what i can glean is this ...when i grin as natural reaction i have no probs ...when i am asked to arrange my face for a photo i end up with a grimace ...
AM I NEARLY THERE ...???????? or shall i go back to reading my HERODOTUS which i love in small doses ....lol
what i can glean is this ...when i grin as natural reaction i have no probs ...when i am asked to arrange my face for a photo i end up with a grimace ...
AM I NEARLY THERE ...???????? or shall i go back to reading my HERODOTUS which i love in small doses ....lol
but why are the two types of grin different? i am saying that one is controlled by a primitive part of the brain and the other by the more evolved conscious part and suggesting that dopamine has more influence on one than the other.
cheers
cheers
Dear Grey and Turnip,
Thank You for your comments. We shouldn’t take ourselves too seriously. I sometimes do.
Quicksand is a thixotropic substance like muscle tissue so it is not surprising it feels a bit like Parkinson’s disease.
Friction management does not explain everything. There are different functions in the construction of movement I assume. A movement has to be induced and also stopped. I agree there must be different programs that are associated with different types of movements. It is the layer of functional definition where our disagreement is. Friction is an undeniable physical phenomenon. It must have a role in any theory of how this all works.
In my opinion the emic approach can be fruitful because you can instantly test whether a theory makes sense. This is only part of the cycle. Next steps are forming hypotheses and testing them. Compare this to the empirical cycle as advocated by A.D. de Groot.
Throwing darts is never a slow movement (I asked both Raimond van Barneveld and Koos Stompé). Slow movements are affected much more by friction.
Using a different neurotransmitter associates a different set of nerve cells causing a different pattern of muscle contractions. I believe you are right in this but it doesn’t contradict my friction management theory.
I also suspect the movement that you call spontaneous to be evolutionary older.
About my friction management theory:
If a force is induced on an object that is in friction, nothing will happen till the friction coefficient is reached. At this point the force of friction suddenly drops. This causes a movement that is exaggerated, too much if you only intended a small movement. If on the other hand you intended a fast crude movement this friction release effect is only minor as it happens only once in one action.
The reason for this is that you need a greater force to start a movement then to continue a movement. The difference between these forces is what causes the inaccuracies.
However, friction can also be overcome by a force in a different direction, force “a”. This is not what you want because it makes the object move in the wrong direction. So you have to correct that. This can be done by applying a force “b” opposite to force “a” a few moments after force “a”. This is repeated at a certain frequency. The alternating forces “a“ and “b” take care of the friction and a third force can be applied very precise.
If this makes sense, a high frequency tremor must always accompany a precise movement. This can be tested.
If friction is lowered using this technique, friction can also get too low causing dyskinesia.
Best Regards,
Joop Oele
Thank You for your comments. We shouldn’t take ourselves too seriously. I sometimes do.
Quicksand is a thixotropic substance like muscle tissue so it is not surprising it feels a bit like Parkinson’s disease.
Friction management does not explain everything. There are different functions in the construction of movement I assume. A movement has to be induced and also stopped. I agree there must be different programs that are associated with different types of movements. It is the layer of functional definition where our disagreement is. Friction is an undeniable physical phenomenon. It must have a role in any theory of how this all works.
In my opinion the emic approach can be fruitful because you can instantly test whether a theory makes sense. This is only part of the cycle. Next steps are forming hypotheses and testing them. Compare this to the empirical cycle as advocated by A.D. de Groot.
Throwing darts is never a slow movement (I asked both Raimond van Barneveld and Koos Stompé). Slow movements are affected much more by friction.
Using a different neurotransmitter associates a different set of nerve cells causing a different pattern of muscle contractions. I believe you are right in this but it doesn’t contradict my friction management theory.
I also suspect the movement that you call spontaneous to be evolutionary older.
About my friction management theory:
If a force is induced on an object that is in friction, nothing will happen till the friction coefficient is reached. At this point the force of friction suddenly drops. This causes a movement that is exaggerated, too much if you only intended a small movement. If on the other hand you intended a fast crude movement this friction release effect is only minor as it happens only once in one action.
The reason for this is that you need a greater force to start a movement then to continue a movement. The difference between these forces is what causes the inaccuracies.
However, friction can also be overcome by a force in a different direction, force “a”. This is not what you want because it makes the object move in the wrong direction. So you have to correct that. This can be done by applying a force “b” opposite to force “a” a few moments after force “a”. This is repeated at a certain frequency. The alternating forces “a“ and “b” take care of the friction and a third force can be applied very precise.
If this makes sense, a high frequency tremor must always accompany a precise movement. This can be tested.
If friction is lowered using this technique, friction can also get too low causing dyskinesia.
Best Regards,
Joop Oele
i think i almost begin to understand.
lots of little back and forward oscilations will smooth out the sudden jump of overcoming friction - is that what you mean?
lots of little back and forward oscilations will smooth out the sudden jump of overcoming friction - is that what you mean?
Dear Turnip,
That is what I mean. By Varying the parameters of the oscilations the precision might be effected. A Neurotransmitter might be reserved for this. I think possibly dopamine could be this neurotransmitter. To find that out, is a next step.
Joop Oele
Further reading:
High precision point-to-point maneuvering of an experimental structure subject to friction via adaptive impulsive control.
http://code.eng.buffalo.edu/tdf/papers/CCA_06_Fric.pdf
That is what I mean. By Varying the parameters of the oscilations the precision might be effected. A Neurotransmitter might be reserved for this. I think possibly dopamine could be this neurotransmitter. To find that out, is a next step.
Joop Oele
Further reading:
High precision point-to-point maneuvering of an experimental structure subject to friction via adaptive impulsive control.
http://code.eng.buffalo.edu/tdf/papers/CCA_06_Fric.pdf
so........
i believe our quest for enlightenment is nearing its end,
dopamine (in the brain or outside?) might normally cause this oscillation and the lack of causes ratchetting?
If so isnt the treatment levadopa or are you hinting at some electronic device to replace the missing message?
isnt that what dbs does?
terribly helpful article.
cheers
was going to do a joke about ole ole ole oleeeeee but decided against it
i believe our quest for enlightenment is nearing its end,
dopamine (in the brain or outside?) might normally cause this oscillation and the lack of causes ratchetting?
If so isnt the treatment levadopa or are you hinting at some electronic device to replace the missing message?
isnt that what dbs does?
terribly helpful article.
cheers
was going to do a joke about ole ole ole oleeeeee but decided against it
Sorry guys, I'm stuck on a Scottish Island where the phone is just being invented so WWW revolution is as yet science fiction. By some freak of nature, a stray 3G tunnel to the outside world has been established so I'm able to make contact with the world.
Hi Joop, Turnip and World.
Turnip you may be suffering enlightenment but for me the light at the end of the tunnel is receding. All I see is the presentation of a series of statements to back up a theory which started as an analogy.
Joop, for most (all?) of the evidence presented, I see a scenario which can be explained by more conventional current wisdom without recourse to a new theory.
Take for example your opening post. You described how symptom free you can on awakening. Ray of Sunshine and Passagita described similar experience and you explained this to be due to the lack of medication overnight and how that supports your theory.
May I suggest this phenomena is simply due to rest? "Recharging the batteries," as we say in the UK.
Consider a fourth experience - mine. I often come to a point in the day when PD symptoms are bad. I'm stiff, lethargic, slurring my speech, words are jumbled, I can't concentrate etc. I fall asleep. I wake up a new person. I can talk coherently, think and move. This can happen anywhere in my drug cycle. And I know other pwp's who power nap.
to be continued - I'll post this whilst I still have a signal
Hi Joop, Turnip and World.
Turnip you may be suffering enlightenment but for me the light at the end of the tunnel is receding. All I see is the presentation of a series of statements to back up a theory which started as an analogy.
Joop, for most (all?) of the evidence presented, I see a scenario which can be explained by more conventional current wisdom without recourse to a new theory.
Take for example your opening post. You described how symptom free you can on awakening. Ray of Sunshine and Passagita described similar experience and you explained this to be due to the lack of medication overnight and how that supports your theory.
May I suggest this phenomena is simply due to rest? "Recharging the batteries," as we say in the UK.
Consider a fourth experience - mine. I often come to a point in the day when PD symptoms are bad. I'm stiff, lethargic, slurring my speech, words are jumbled, I can't concentrate etc. I fall asleep. I wake up a new person. I can talk coherently, think and move. This can happen anywhere in my drug cycle. And I know other pwp's who power nap.
to be continued - I'll post this whilst I still have a signal