good morning all ..thanks TURNP///for your reply ..hats noe very clear andi can understand and follow which is more than my fingers appear abl e to do right now .
my overnight pattern is awful without ovrnight meds ... and agree that inexplaisble drug fail and alternate wellbeing and nearly zooming round are both part of me ...
i know i push and push myself when i feel well just in csae it goes again ...and it does ..
am very interested in your debate but agree niot to ytake ourselves too
seiously ...i had to give up primary teaching and pole dancing careesr but
the clients keep on shouting for me ...lol
problem is the tassels !!!!!!!!!
how to keep them going in different directions with all that friction around ????
ok night night !!!
continuation of previous posting - part 2
Joop, I feel that most of your observations on "Friction Management" can be explained by an understanding of the conventional concept of friction. I will attempt to explain this concept without getting too technical.
What is friction? Friction in an electromagnetic force causing a bonding between objects touching each other.
Simply put, adjacent atoms of two bodies form a bond if the atoms are close enough. The surfaces of the bodies are not smooth and the high spots make more bonds � they effectively behave like a series of spot welds.
If an attempt is made to slide one body over the other, the bonds have to be overcome if movement is to take place � this results in static friction. The slide takes effect when the force attempting to make the slide overcomes the surface bonds.
Once sliding, the chance for atoms to make bonds is reduced hence friction is reduced � this results in dynamic friction.
Friction resists the attempt to slide one surface over another (static friction) and the resistance is less once the slide is taking place (dynamic friction). If the slide stops, static friction is resumed. This is achieved without any management of friction.
Joop, I feel that most of your observations on "Friction Management" can be explained by an understanding of the conventional concept of friction. I will attempt to explain this concept without getting too technical.
What is friction? Friction in an electromagnetic force causing a bonding between objects touching each other.
Simply put, adjacent atoms of two bodies form a bond if the atoms are close enough. The surfaces of the bodies are not smooth and the high spots make more bonds � they effectively behave like a series of spot welds.
If an attempt is made to slide one body over the other, the bonds have to be overcome if movement is to take place � this results in static friction. The slide takes effect when the force attempting to make the slide overcomes the surface bonds.
Once sliding, the chance for atoms to make bonds is reduced hence friction is reduced � this results in dynamic friction.
Friction resists the attempt to slide one surface over another (static friction) and the resistance is less once the slide is taking place (dynamic friction). If the slide stops, static friction is resumed. This is achieved without any management of friction.
yodapark - do you have pictures, website etc i have always been interested in primary education.
Grey - i think i have caught stockholm syndrome, and you know a lot more about friction than i do, so over to you.
yoop, do you really know those darts players? btw to clarify, if i do the lining up and throwing in a continuous non-thinking motion it works better than a carful lining up and throwing. i put that down to a lower part of the brain controlling the unthinking throw and the self-conscious dopamin using upper brain trying to control the throw. Sort of the mirror to Dr Millers.
Grey - i think i have caught stockholm syndrome, and you know a lot more about friction than i do, so over to you.
yoop, do you really know those darts players? btw to clarify, if i do the lining up and throwing in a continuous non-thinking motion it works better than a carful lining up and throwing. i put that down to a lower part of the brain controlling the unthinking throw and the self-conscious dopamin using upper brain trying to control the throw. Sort of the mirror to Dr Millers.
HEE HEE ...SORRY MY FRIEND ..I WISH ...LOL
Turnip
I'm no expert, just remeber this stuff from studying physics at school. Now of course I wish it was prose and poetry but that's life.
Your contributio on lower v upper brain are interesting. I hhad only thought of body functions we don't have direct control over as being the lower part, the rest upper. Breathing, heart beat, reflex .....
This could explain how breathing is an 'automatic' function I can overide. Lower brain does the basic work, upper lets me hold my breath at will.
An obvious connection between running and throwing is escapping danger - avoiding becoming ssomeone's lunch. Indeed the same could apply to the hunter. Adrenalin?
Food for thought one might say....
Yodapark
I'M developing a theory that friction keeps pole dancers up longer. Volunteers for clinical trials please. Strictly profeessional.
I'm no expert, just remeber this stuff from studying physics at school. Now of course I wish it was prose and poetry but that's life.
Your contributio on lower v upper brain are interesting. I hhad only thought of body functions we don't have direct control over as being the lower part, the rest upper. Breathing, heart beat, reflex .....
This could explain how breathing is an 'automatic' function I can overide. Lower brain does the basic work, upper lets me hold my breath at will.
An obvious connection between running and throwing is escapping danger - avoiding becoming ssomeone's lunch. Indeed the same could apply to the hunter. Adrenalin?
Food for thought one might say....
Yodapark
I'M developing a theory that friction keeps pole dancers up longer. Volunteers for clinical trials please. Strictly profeessional.
Hi Grey,
It’s been some 30 years since I was in Scotland. I remember Rannoch station; what a splendid environment. I’ve been there for 8 weeks and it never stopped raining. I never missed the internet though.
About the dopamine theory of parkinson’s disease, the link did’nt work because it was too long. This is de link again with one space added right behind the word onderzoek. Copy and paste it in your browser and remove this space.
http://parkinsonhuis.nl/onderzoek /The%20Dopamine%20Theory%20of%20Parkinson's%20Disease.htm
Most of the dopamine theory of Parkinson’s disease I agree with.
- (van den Bosch:)”The signalling between neurons can be electrically by directly inducing a potential difference in the cell membrane of the connecting neurons, or chemically by releasing a neurotransmitter that influences ion pumps in the cell membrane. An electric signal is fast and of short duration, while chemical transmissions are relatively slow and last longer. The manner of signal transmission depends on the way two neurons are connected, with an electrical or a chemical synaps. “
- The chemical synapse is dependent on the presence of receptors of a certain type. These receptors , be it dopamine, serotonin, glutamate or any other receptor are present all the time and they form a pattern. By releasing a certain neurotransmitter, corresponding patterns are activated. This way the same circuits can be used for different purposes.
- In mechanics there are different aspects of movement. A theory of Movement in Parkinson’s Disease should not neglect this.
Do you recognize this:
Sometimes I am very much of. I feel I do not have the power to keep myself up. In this stage I do not have dyskinesia. It cost a lot of effort to hold a steady position.
When my medication works I often slide through my movements. When I turn my head to the left it automatically turns to the utmost left position. I have all kinds of spontaneous movements. I can take over control but then it happens in another part of my body.
What I’m aiming at is that there is no paragraph in the dopamine theory of parkinson’s disease on friction while it is in my opinion obvious that lack of friction control is an important factor in explaining these symptoms.
Every scientific theory starts as an analogy
Charging up the batteries as you say in the uk is no explanation at all. It’s clear that systems that rely on a buffer value will function better if this buffer filled to it’s threshold value. All the neurotransmitter systems are buffered systems. I’d like to know which function they perform.
Joop Oele
It’s been some 30 years since I was in Scotland. I remember Rannoch station; what a splendid environment. I’ve been there for 8 weeks and it never stopped raining. I never missed the internet though.
About the dopamine theory of parkinson’s disease, the link did’nt work because it was too long. This is de link again with one space added right behind the word onderzoek. Copy and paste it in your browser and remove this space.
http://parkinsonhuis.nl/onderzoek /The%20Dopamine%20Theory%20of%20Parkinson's%20Disease.htm
Most of the dopamine theory of Parkinson’s disease I agree with.
- (van den Bosch:)”The signalling between neurons can be electrically by directly inducing a potential difference in the cell membrane of the connecting neurons, or chemically by releasing a neurotransmitter that influences ion pumps in the cell membrane. An electric signal is fast and of short duration, while chemical transmissions are relatively slow and last longer. The manner of signal transmission depends on the way two neurons are connected, with an electrical or a chemical synaps. “
- The chemical synapse is dependent on the presence of receptors of a certain type. These receptors , be it dopamine, serotonin, glutamate or any other receptor are present all the time and they form a pattern. By releasing a certain neurotransmitter, corresponding patterns are activated. This way the same circuits can be used for different purposes.
- In mechanics there are different aspects of movement. A theory of Movement in Parkinson’s Disease should not neglect this.
Do you recognize this:
Sometimes I am very much of. I feel I do not have the power to keep myself up. In this stage I do not have dyskinesia. It cost a lot of effort to hold a steady position.
When my medication works I often slide through my movements. When I turn my head to the left it automatically turns to the utmost left position. I have all kinds of spontaneous movements. I can take over control but then it happens in another part of my body.
What I’m aiming at is that there is no paragraph in the dopamine theory of parkinson’s disease on friction while it is in my opinion obvious that lack of friction control is an important factor in explaining these symptoms.
Every scientific theory starts as an analogy
Charging up the batteries as you say in the uk is no explanation at all. It’s clear that systems that rely on a buffer value will function better if this buffer filled to it’s threshold value. All the neurotransmitter systems are buffered systems. I’d like to know which function they perform.
Joop Oele
Sorry Turnip, I was just boasting. I don’t know them, but if now you decide to utilize a slow movement I advise you to wear safety shoes.
This is an article that may satisfy your needs:
Optimality in Human Motor Performance: Ideal Control
of Rapid Aimed Movements
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.113.1247&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Joop Oele
This is an article that may satisfy your needs:
Optimality in Human Motor Performance: Ideal Control
of Rapid Aimed Movements
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.113.1247&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Joop Oele
I sometimes wonder whether neurologist read and answer posts on this forum.
While I have not got a clue why 'when I do things quickly' works, while slower control movements are not so easy. It may well be that in the former (quick movements) the system is boosted directly by dopamine from the adrenal glands responding to signals from the brain (after all it is a long way for to travel from brain to toe without burning away.
I am not trying to knock the original theme of the thread re mechanics and friction
but just contemplating upon all the different aspects to sensations I am aware of within my body.
While I have not got a clue why 'when I do things quickly' works, while slower control movements are not so easy. It may well be that in the former (quick movements) the system is boosted directly by dopamine from the adrenal glands responding to signals from the brain (after all it is a long way for to travel from brain to toe without burning away.
I am not trying to knock the original theme of the thread re mechanics and friction
but just contemplating upon all the different aspects to sensations I am aware of within my body.
Hi Joop,
Back on mainland for a few days - luxury not having to type on my phone. Still raining 30 years on but I do recall sunshine in the recent past.
I've now read van der Bosch - good straightforward paper. Useful read. But nothing in support of you theory of Friction Management. Is that through neglect or because there's no evidence of such a system at work in the body?
I could add a paragraph or two on friction but it would be on friction forces, not management.
No, I don't recognise (in myself) the "slide through movements" effect you experience. Not sure the point you make. Can be explained: mind desires head to move to left, brain instruct relevant muscles to rotate head, mind desires head to stop rotation, brain instructs muscles to cease rotation. Second signal failed to get through so rotation continues till another sensor kicks in to prevent damage. Simplistic but plausible explanation, no friction management.
"Every scientific theory starts as an analogy." Don't know if this is true or false. But it is important that the analogy remains just that and does not become the theory.
Joop are you by any chance a politician? I feel you move the argument skilfully ignoring points I raise.
All you have to say on my explanation of Passeggiata, Ray of Sunshine, your and my experiences of temporary release from PD is "Charging up the batteries as you say in the UK is no explanation at all." You ignore completely my explanation of rest being the common factor.
I also would appreciate a reaction to my statement "most of your observations on "Friction Management" can be explained by an understanding of the conventional concept of friction."
Grey.
Back on mainland for a few days - luxury not having to type on my phone. Still raining 30 years on but I do recall sunshine in the recent past.
I've now read van der Bosch - good straightforward paper. Useful read. But nothing in support of you theory of Friction Management. Is that through neglect or because there's no evidence of such a system at work in the body?
I could add a paragraph or two on friction but it would be on friction forces, not management.
No, I don't recognise (in myself) the "slide through movements" effect you experience. Not sure the point you make. Can be explained: mind desires head to move to left, brain instruct relevant muscles to rotate head, mind desires head to stop rotation, brain instructs muscles to cease rotation. Second signal failed to get through so rotation continues till another sensor kicks in to prevent damage. Simplistic but plausible explanation, no friction management.
"Every scientific theory starts as an analogy." Don't know if this is true or false. But it is important that the analogy remains just that and does not become the theory.
Joop are you by any chance a politician? I feel you move the argument skilfully ignoring points I raise.
All you have to say on my explanation of Passeggiata, Ray of Sunshine, your and my experiences of temporary release from PD is "Charging up the batteries as you say in the UK is no explanation at all." You ignore completely my explanation of rest being the common factor.
I also would appreciate a reaction to my statement "most of your observations on "Friction Management" can be explained by an understanding of the conventional concept of friction."
Grey.
Dear Grey,
Today was an excellent day for painting the backdoor of my house. Probably one of the last sunny days this year.
Van der Bosch’s paper I added for those who do not know the dopamine theory of parkinson’s disease. There is no mentioning of friction and no support for my theory.
What is the most striking, not explained, phenomenon is what is called stick-slip friction. I added links to papers where this is explained.
I predicted high frequency intro’s before muscles were activated. This I found in the form of so called “burst neurons”. What I didn’t find is what neurotransmitter is involved in the various types of burst neurons.
No, I don't recognise (in myself) the "slide through movements" effect you experience. Not sure the point you make. Can be explained: mind desires head to move to left, brain instruct relevant muscles to rotate head, mind desires head to stop rotation, brain instructs muscles to cease rotation. Second signal failed to get through so rotation continues till another sensor kicks in to prevent damage. Simplistic but plausible explanation, no friction management.
This may be how it works, I mentioned this experience, my experience to show you how I came to this theory. You might not share this experience, probably because you don’t experience dyskinesia, but the empiric cycle I suggested also consisted of a prediction. Because of that prediction I went searching or googling for high frequency signaling neurons. I found this in burst neurons.
Yes rest may be the common factor. But as I said already, neurotransmitter systems are buffered systems. During the night the cells that produce the neurotransmitter will built up some reserve again. This however is not an explanation. I want to know what function can no longer be performed. It does not say anything specific.
Of course friction behaves as friction does without the need of managing it. But if you want your movements to happen as you planned it, you will need to calculate friction. You now have two ways at your disposal. You can vary the force that is used for movement, or you can vary friction by breaking it apart using high frequency oscillations. The last is far more precise. An area where this precision is needed very much, is eye movements. There has been a lot of research going on in this field. Try to google on burst neurons and eye movements.
Joop Oele
Today was an excellent day for painting the backdoor of my house. Probably one of the last sunny days this year.
Van der Bosch’s paper I added for those who do not know the dopamine theory of parkinson’s disease. There is no mentioning of friction and no support for my theory.
What is the most striking, not explained, phenomenon is what is called stick-slip friction. I added links to papers where this is explained.
I predicted high frequency intro’s before muscles were activated. This I found in the form of so called “burst neurons”. What I didn’t find is what neurotransmitter is involved in the various types of burst neurons.
No, I don't recognise (in myself) the "slide through movements" effect you experience. Not sure the point you make. Can be explained: mind desires head to move to left, brain instruct relevant muscles to rotate head, mind desires head to stop rotation, brain instructs muscles to cease rotation. Second signal failed to get through so rotation continues till another sensor kicks in to prevent damage. Simplistic but plausible explanation, no friction management.
This may be how it works, I mentioned this experience, my experience to show you how I came to this theory. You might not share this experience, probably because you don’t experience dyskinesia, but the empiric cycle I suggested also consisted of a prediction. Because of that prediction I went searching or googling for high frequency signaling neurons. I found this in burst neurons.
Yes rest may be the common factor. But as I said already, neurotransmitter systems are buffered systems. During the night the cells that produce the neurotransmitter will built up some reserve again. This however is not an explanation. I want to know what function can no longer be performed. It does not say anything specific.
Of course friction behaves as friction does without the need of managing it. But if you want your movements to happen as you planned it, you will need to calculate friction. You now have two ways at your disposal. You can vary the force that is used for movement, or you can vary friction by breaking it apart using high frequency oscillations. The last is far more precise. An area where this precision is needed very much, is eye movements. There has been a lot of research going on in this field. Try to google on burst neurons and eye movements.
Joop Oele
ok you erudite bunch ...hands up ...you lost me ...lol....
Yoda,
The Araldite Bunch more like - "I'll stick to my story, you stick to the wall!"
Which bit don't you understand, it's sort of friction and fracts
The Araldite Bunch more like - "I'll stick to my story, you stick to the wall!"
Which bit don't you understand, it's sort of friction and fracts
TURNIP..HI...suppose i do understand really but just not sure where it gets us ...i know i know ...knowledge is power etc..and i was the one who read the entire NICE guidelines on P.D. a while ago ...sad or what !
Am thiinking it really is a man thing to be quite so interested in friction theory ...from my aforementioned experience pole.dancing i KNOW it works ...lol..
No doubt the politically correct brigade will not be pleased with me ...but me and my lateral thinking keeps me going ...i enjoy the practical side ...lol
Never take it all too seriously in case it overwhelms the soul ...that,s a reality. I COME from very eccentric eclectic bunch of free thinkers ...
eldest of 8 siblings ...6 of which are brothers ...mainly scientists of great varities ...so used to long family debates about the nature of the universe !!!
these all end on the same place ...the pub....cheers x
Am thiinking it really is a man thing to be quite so interested in friction theory ...from my aforementioned experience pole.dancing i KNOW it works ...lol..
No doubt the politically correct brigade will not be pleased with me ...but me and my lateral thinking keeps me going ...i enjoy the practical side ...lol
Never take it all too seriously in case it overwhelms the soul ...that,s a reality. I COME from very eccentric eclectic bunch of free thinkers ...
eldest of 8 siblings ...6 of which are brothers ...mainly scientists of great varities ...so used to long family debates about the nature of the universe !!!
these all end on the same place ...the pub....cheers x
Yoda,
I once learned the Greek alphabet, it was the summer between school]l and university, I was in hospital for 6 weeks, utterly bored, so thought it would be of benefit to a engineering student to know his alpha beta gammas. It wasn't. But last Sunday, a group of us were attempting the Telegraph crosswords.
"In the Greek alphabet, which letter comes between tau and phi?"
"Upsilon!" I shouted. 41 years and it paid off. (Sad but true, now where did I leave my blue anorak?)
Friction is an equal opportunities phenomena. It's even invaded Holland despite it not being required by the Dutch due to lack of slopes. I recall in those physics labs that friction experiments always involved blocks of wood and sloping surfaces.
This is a tedious way to carry on a discussion - no whiteboard, time lag, physical violence impossible and, above all, no pub round the corner.
Cheers all!
I once learned the Greek alphabet, it was the summer between school]l and university, I was in hospital for 6 weeks, utterly bored, so thought it would be of benefit to a engineering student to know his alpha beta gammas. It wasn't. But last Sunday, a group of us were attempting the Telegraph crosswords.
"In the Greek alphabet, which letter comes between tau and phi?"
"Upsilon!" I shouted. 41 years and it paid off. (Sad but true, now where did I leave my blue anorak?)
Friction is an equal opportunities phenomena. It's even invaded Holland despite it not being required by the Dutch due to lack of slopes. I recall in those physics labs that friction experiments always involved blocks of wood and sloping surfaces.
This is a tedious way to carry on a discussion - no whiteboard, time lag, physical violence impossible and, above all, no pub round the corner.
Cheers all!
Hi beauxreflets,
At a guess, neurologist's are unable to take part because of Medical Ethics. Would be interested to know if this is the case.
Doing things quickly - I think it's quite complex. Consider these scenarios (emic approach)
1. I don't wear a watch but can tell the time quite accurately. If someone asks me the time I'm often accurate to within 5 minutes, mainly within 15 minutes of the correct time. I must say the first thing that comes into my mind. If I think about it, I almost certainly will be wrong.
2. I'm hopeless at darts and pool. I try to play each game carefully but get nowhere. Occasionally I don't take aim, fling the dart at the board and hey ho double twenty! Or whack the white pool ball and sink colour I want! Alas, if I try to repeat the trick, no luck.
3. Two days ago, I was trying to cut a slice of bread off an extremely yummie looking loaf. Sharp bread knife in hand butI couldn't initiate the sawing motion. The phone rang, it was a parky pal so inevitably I mentioned my lunchtime dilemma. After the call, I still couldn't saw. I made a cuppa, read the newspaper and grazed on my intended sandwich. Now deep into the puzzle page, slurping cold tea and chewing my cheese and pickle sandwich I ... sandwich???? - who cut the bread?
And so on ......
Scenario 1 - non pd, non motor
Scenario 2 - non pd, motor
Scenario 3 - pd, motor
Common to each is the ability to do some act spontaneously, but fail when think ing about it.
Food for thought: can we learn to do these whilst thinking about them?
Not only could I win at darts, could I control my PD symptoms by thought alone?
At a guess, neurologist's are unable to take part because of Medical Ethics. Would be interested to know if this is the case.
Doing things quickly - I think it's quite complex. Consider these scenarios (emic approach)
1. I don't wear a watch but can tell the time quite accurately. If someone asks me the time I'm often accurate to within 5 minutes, mainly within 15 minutes of the correct time. I must say the first thing that comes into my mind. If I think about it, I almost certainly will be wrong.
2. I'm hopeless at darts and pool. I try to play each game carefully but get nowhere. Occasionally I don't take aim, fling the dart at the board and hey ho double twenty! Or whack the white pool ball and sink colour I want! Alas, if I try to repeat the trick, no luck.
3. Two days ago, I was trying to cut a slice of bread off an extremely yummie looking loaf. Sharp bread knife in hand butI couldn't initiate the sawing motion. The phone rang, it was a parky pal so inevitably I mentioned my lunchtime dilemma. After the call, I still couldn't saw. I made a cuppa, read the newspaper and grazed on my intended sandwich. Now deep into the puzzle page, slurping cold tea and chewing my cheese and pickle sandwich I ... sandwich???? - who cut the bread?
And so on ......
Scenario 1 - non pd, non motor
Scenario 2 - non pd, motor
Scenario 3 - pd, motor
Common to each is the ability to do some act spontaneously, but fail when think ing about it.
Food for thought: can we learn to do these whilst thinking about them?
Not only could I win at darts, could I control my PD symptoms by thought alone?