Hello,
I have been investigating alternative treatments for PD and have read about the Indian herb called 'Mucuna Pruriens' that has been used for 4500 years in India for PD.
Has anybody had experience of using 'Mucuna Pruriens' to treat their PD in either the short or long term and what were their experiences and conclusions of this herb?
Thank you
Adrian
In my research on "mucuna", I found it to be a lot safer than Sinemet.
Here's a couple of examples:
Example#1) http://crisp.cit.nih.gov/crisp/CRISP_LIB.getdoc? textkey=6870829&p_grant_num=1R21AT001607-01A1&p_query=&ticket=19936581&p _audit_session_id=88437379&p_keywords=
Aurveda is an indegenious medical practice of India. Recent investigations indicate the Aurvedic medicinal compound Mucuna pruriens is effective in improving Parkinsonism. Patients with Parkinson's disease (PD) develop severe and often disabling side effects after 3-5 years of medical therapy with currently available medications used in modern medicine. Review of Aurvedic scriptures and consultation with practitioners of Aurveda indicate that PD patients treated with Aurvedic medications containing Mucuna pruriens do not develop disabling side effects........
Example#2)
http://www.vedicspa.com/kaunch.html
Research Update
In a a randomised, controlled, double blind crossover trial published on Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, Psychiatry, the clinical effects of levodopa L-dopa/carbidopa (LD/CD) are compared with two different doses of mucuna preparation. Eight Parkinson's disease patients were given with single doses of 200/50 mg LD/CD, or 15 and 30 g of mucuna preparation in randomised order. Compared with standard LD/CD, the 30 g mucuna preparation led to a considerably faster onset of effect (34.6 v 68.5 min; p = 0.021), Mean on time was 21.9% (37 min) longer, peak L-dopa plasma concentrations were 110% higher and the area under the plasma concentration v time curve (area under curve) was 165.3% larger (p = 0.012). The rapid onset of action and longer on time without concomitant increase in dyskinesias on mucuna seed powder formulation suggest that this natural source of L- dopa might possess advantages over conventional L-dopa preparations in the long term management of PD.
Despite the fact Mucuna was used in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease in ancient times, it is still important today to establish that the drug dose not have adverse effects on various vital organs. This was accomplished by administering low to very high doses of the drug in rats and rabbits and testing the effect of Mucuna on blood chemistry and blood count (such as the one that many physicians perform in their offices and the hospitals) and various organs. Some of the tests were done for as long as one year and the results indicated no adverse effects were present from Mucuna preparations.
To establish how Mucuna would compare to synthetic L-DOPA, experiments were undertaken in animal models of Parkinson’s disease. Two different doses of synthetic L-DOPA and two different doses of Mucuna were administered making sure that the amount of L-DOPA present is the same in Mucuna as was the doses of synthetic L-DOPA. The effects of the drugs were tested using a specially designed instrument called "Rotometer." Dose for dose, Mucuna was two to three times more effective than equivalent amounts of synthetic L-DOPA. This suggests that Mucuna may contain compounds that make L-DOPA function better such as carbidopa, tolcapone (Tasmar), or entacapone (COMTan). It may also suggest that Mucuna independently improve symptoms of Parkinson’s disease. Although quite encouraging, more research is needed to confirm these findings. This work was done at the time when the United States Congress established the Office of Alternative Medicine in the National Institute of Health and the work was one of the first to receive funding for alternative medicine.
Additional studies in India were undertaken to establish the benefit of HP200 in patients with Parkinson’s disease. Four medical centers were selected involving sixty patients and several neurologists. The studies were conducted for three months. During that time, the patients received HP200 while no concomitant L-DOPA preparations were administered. Trained neurologists monitored changes in the degree of patent’s symptoms and any side effects. At the end of the study, it was determined that the HP200 was highly beneficial in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease. The side effects were minimal. HP200 was approved by the Indian Food and Drug Administration and is available in India under the brand name Zandopa. Further, the cost of the drug was much cheaper compared to the synthetic drugs; thus it became more affordable to the patients. The United States Food and Drug Administration approve the drug for clinical studies, however, it is not available from the pharmacist.
Work on the Mucuna for Parkinson’s disease is being continued. The importance of this particular study is not that Mucuna is an alternative to L-DOPA, rather it is that compounds occurring naturally in plants for example, may contain biologically active components that can be isolated, tested, and used to provide safer and better treatments for Parkinson’s disease.
Example #3)
http://www.parkinson.org/site/pp.asp?c=9dJFJLPwB&b=184301
.......Despite the fact Mucuna was used in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease in ancient times, it is still important today to establish that the drug dose not have adverse effects on various vital organs. This was accomplished by administering low to very high doses of the drug in rats and rabbits and testing the effect of Mucuna on blood chemistry and blood count (such as the one that many physicians perform in their offices and the hospitals) and various organs. Some of the tests were done for as long as one year and the results indicated no adverse effects were present from Mucuna preparations.
To establish how Mucuna would compare to synthetic L-DOPA, experiments were undertaken in animal models of Parkinson’s disease. Two different doses of synthetic L-DOPA and two different doses of Mucuna were administered making sure that the amount of L-DOPA present is the same in Mucuna as was the doses of synthetic L-DOPA. The effects of the drugs were tested using a specially designed instrument called "Rotometer." Dose for dose, Mucuna was two to three times more effective than equivalent amounts of synthetic L-DOPA. This suggests that Mucuna may contain compounds that make L-DOPA function better such as carbidopa, tolcapone (Tasmar), or entacapone (COMTan). It may also suggest that Mucuna independently improve symptoms of Parkinson’s disease. Although quite encouraging, more research is needed to confirm these findings. This work was done at the time when the United States Congress established the Office of Alternative Medicine in the National Institute of Health and the work was one of the first to receive funding for alternative medicine......
Example #4)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15548480&query_hl=2
..........No significant differences in dyskinesias or tolerability occurred. CONCLUSIONS: The rapid onset of action and longer on time without concomitant increase in dyskinesias on mucuna seed powder formulation suggest that this natural source of L-dopa might possess advantages over conventional L-dopa preparations in the long term management of PD.......
Example #5) Rat study (I don't approve of animal studies, but this one is interesting)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15478206&query_hl=2
.......Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder significantly increased the brain mitochondrial complex-I activity but did not affect the total monoamine oxidase activity (in vitro). Unlike synthetic levodopa treatment, Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder treatment significantly restored the endogenous levodopa, dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin content in the substantia nigra. Nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) and coenzyme Q-10, that are shown to have a therapeutic benefit in Parkinson's disease, were present in the Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder. Earlier studies showed that Mucuna pruriens treatment controls the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. This additional finding of a neurorestorative benefit by Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the degenerating dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra may be due to increased complex-I activity and the presence of NADH and coenzyme Q-10.........
I hope this info is helpful for anyone considering taking "Mucuna". I haven't been taking it for long, less than eight months, but I find it very beneficial.
I suspect that Zandopa (Mucuna from India HP-200) might contain other beneficial ingredients besides mucuna. I haven't been able to find this out jet. I've tried raw mucuna (powder and capsules), but it makes me a little anxious. I was probably taking to much at first.
I found Zandopa (mucuna from India HP-200) works much better for me, lasts longer, don't get anxious, or any side effects, but they do add a sweetener to make it more palatable. My source for Zandopa is: http://mall.coimbatore.com/bnh/zandu/zandopa.htm
Sincerely, Max
PS Some of these links are no longer current, but I did get them within the last 4 months.
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jojobean
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: salt Lake city, Utah
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: Mucana
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thanks Max and welcome to the forum.
where can one buy this product? How much?
I want to forward this to Tony Jordan Pd'r and his mom now one also.
I'll try but if it won't forward can someone help me out?
JoJo
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jojobean (alias Jo, JoAnn,
or
The Good witch of the North,
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John Sh
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:36 am Post subject:
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Max, what would a very conservative dosage of Zandopa be for a starting PDer? I am like Jack, in that I am subject to all kinds of side effects, but for all intents and purposes, am unmedicated at present. Just curious. I have had slowly progressing PD for 10 years, and I am ready for some help. I may send off for some of this and give it a try. I have never tried the capsules. Thanks, John S
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JaniceB
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 18
Location: SLC
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: mucuna
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Max, I have been reading your posts & have found them very helpful. I started taking mucuna 2 mo. ago & I am very happy with the results. Before I was so limited in my movement I was ready to give up. Thanks to your input & an understanding NP I can take care of myself again. I started with a combo of Sinemet & mucuna but now I take Lodosyn with the mucuna & have no side effects. With the Sinemet I was nauseous & had mild toe tapping & shoulder shrugging.
Question: I have ordered the mucuna from 3 sources. I got the first from garrysun.com, it was light colored & tasted like flowers (or what I think flowers would taste like). Then I got the Zandopa which is too sweet & slightly darker in color. The last was from herbsforever & is dark brown & tastes burnt. Have you tried multiple sources & if so have you noticed a difference in potency? Please keep posting your progress. Thanks, Janice
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janiceb
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max19bc
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:03 am Post subject:
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Hi Jo Jo,
I found two sources for "Zandopa" (HP-200 mucuna from India)
Go to:http://mall.coimbatore.com/bnh/zandu/zandopa.htm
They charge 12.95 US for 175 gms of mucuna powder. I live in Canada, and don't have any problems getting it here. Not sure if you can get in the States. It's still not FDA approved yet, still in the testing stage.
Someone just informed me that you can get Zandopa directly from the manufacturer, Zandu. I haven't tried it myself yet, but I'll try in my next order. You can e-mail them at : [email protected]
They've included the following info in their e-mail to him: "Regarding Zandopa for USA Market. There is no distributor as such in USA. Our Customers are requesting the product directly from us (India). Kindly note that we can forward Zandopa (HP-200) bottles to your address through courier and with the required documents. We feel that by producing Doctor’s prescription you can clear your Customs. Since, we are registered with US FDA under Bio-terrorism Act, entry into USA will be easy. A bottle of 175g powders is priced at 4.50 US $ FOB Mumbai and courier charges as applicable (actual). You can inform us your requirement and we will submit a Proforma Invoice giving details of payment. Please give us your email address as well contact details for further communication. Please note that the test of herbal formulation is not fixed. This is mainly due to the herbs use in the formulation and prepared as per the guidelines given by authorities. One of the excipients in HP 200 is sugar and hence one may get sweet test. It helps to take the medicine orally. This particular product got IDM number from USA and many doctors from Europe are prescribing HP 200 to fight against Parkinsonism."
Our Contacts details are as under.
Mr. V. B Potdar – Export Manager
Tel. +91 22 24307021, 39800350
Email – [email protected]
Regards, V.B. Potdar Export Manager
If you can get it from them directly, it sure is a lot cheaper.
I've only tried mucuna from Zandopa and HerbsForever in California. Herbsforever website is:
http://www.satveda.com/ They sell both the powder and tablets.
I like Zandopa the best, but it is sweet.
Others mucuna sources ( I haven't tried any of these) in the States are:
http://www.tattvasherbs.com/mucuna.htm
http://www.americannutrition.com/store/Mucuna.html
http://www.herbal-powers.com/macunapruriens1.html
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&productId=16813&R=14006&healthConcernDropBox=null&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&keyword=Mucuna+Pruriens&Ntt=Mucuna+Pruriens&N=4294967187&brandDropBox=null&productDropBox=Mucuna+Pruriens&Ntk=Level1
http://garrysun.com/kaunch.html
http://searchportal.information.com/
To answer your next question of forwarding this information, try copy (the info) and paste it in your next e-mail.
Hi John S
If you decide to try mucuna, I suggest you take slowly and only small amounts to start. It seems that some people have a hard time accepting it, it makes them nauseous. If you feel sick, try eating some crackers afterwards, it seems to help. The tablets are easier to take, but takes longer to kick in. I still use them, especially if I'm away from home. I always take mucuna on an empty stomach. Mucuna is a herb, the potency will vary from one supplier to another, how old it is, crop variations, etc. You'll have to experiment on how much to take. It will take awhile (maybe a week or two before you will notice an effect), for me I did noticed an effect the very first day, probably because I took to much. If your feeling anxious, hyper or antsy, you know you're taking to much. I was taking Sinemet before I started mucuna, so I gradually reduced my dosage of 4 to 5 tablets of 200/50 Sinemet CR a day to, to now I only take 1 tablet a day (I break it into quarters). I did this transition slowly over a couple of months. I'm still trying to cut out the Sinemet completely.
Hello Janiceb,
I'm really glad to hear that you are happy with your mucuna results. I'm going to check out Lodosyn more, sounds like a good replacement for Sinemet for now. Can you tell me more about this drug? I agree with you about the different flavors and potency of mucuna out there, that's probably why doctors don't know how to prescribe it.
If I knew about mucuna years ago, I definitely would of tried it before I started Sinemet. It's a natural plant product, and I feel great using it. When it kicks in, I'm almost normal, I can walk, jog, run, ride my bike, etc. Not bad considering I was ready for a wheelchair 18 months ago, but that was because I had pd for 5 years already and I was unmediated (tried a lot alternate treatments without much success).
So far this mucuna is amazing........
Take care and GOOD LUCK,
Max
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JaniceB
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 18
Location: SLC
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: lodosyn
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Max,
I take one 25 mg tab of lodosyn (carbadopa) with each dose of mucuna. I have to specially order it as no pharmacies carry it since there isn't a demand for it. I am still trying to optimize the amount of mucuna. My ability to move is a lot better even in the "off" times (I never go back to what I was)) but I am at best only 75%. I am happy nonetheless. I could never have typed this 2 mo. ago. Is your Herbsforever mucuna darker or did I get burnt batch? Janice
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janiceb
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Gautam
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 88
Location: Goa, India
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: Mucuna / Zandopa
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Hi Max & Janice,
Good to hear the positive comments on Zandopa. I have been taking it for the past 18 months now and find that the recommended replacement dosage of 2 x 7.5 gms for one tablet of Sinemet 100/ 25 a bit too high. I take 5 gms of zandopa in replacement of one Sinemet tablet and am trying to reduce it further. I have a brochure of Zandopa which has been scanned and converted in to an 'MS Word' file and can mail it to who ever is interested in reading it.
Gautam
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kmcclung
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Post subject: Mucuna / Zandopa
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Hi Gautam,
I would like to have the information. I modified my profile to show my address.
Have you lived in the U.S.?
Ken
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max19bc
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject:
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Hi Janice, The powered mucuna, I received from HerbsForever is darker than Zandopa, but still light in color. Maybe your batch is just darker, you might want to ask your HerbsForever if this is normal.
Hi Gautam, I'm so glad to hear that Zandopa is working so well for you.
Max
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greentree
Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Mucuna (Is it safer than Sinemet?)
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Max, I excerpted the paragraph below from an April 27, 2007 post of yours because I am intrigued by the mention of "nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) in mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder. Is this the same compound that is in cigarettes?
Two brothers and I all have Parkinson's and took Sinemet. One of my brothers heard about the study that indicated that nicotine helped the tremor of Parkinson's, so he started smoking again after many years of abstinence. He is now a chain smoker and swears he doesn't have PD any more! His tremor is gone after years of shaking quite badly. My father died at the age of 50 of a sudden heart attack and had been a smoker all his life, so I would never recommend smoking for PD. But I am wondering about the NADH in Mucuna. Is this the same harmful compound that is in cigarettes? Here is the paragraph that was in your April 27 post.
.......Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder significantly increased the brain mitochondrial complex-I activity but did not affect the total monoamine oxidase activity (in vitro). Unlike synthetic levodopa treatment, Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder treatment significantly restored the endogenous levodopa, dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin content in the substantia nigra. Nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) and coenzyme Q-10, that are shown to have a therapeutic benefit in Parkinson's disease, were present in the Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder.
greentree
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pokermid
Anonymous
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject:
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hi max
i,ve got PD not a PHD
CAN YOU EXPLAIN IN SIMPLE TERMS PLEASE.
poker
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pokermid
Anonymous
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject:
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how ignorant of me
hi sue , jack , ken , and leonard
hows it swinging
poker
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wheelersce
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 736
Location: MI
Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject:
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Hey, Poker,
Thanks for the greeting. I'm doing fine; been hoping to hear you're feeling ok. Almost skipped this topic, as I can't get into the mucuna stuff. My main prejudice against it, is that (like all nutrititional supplements in the U.S.) it's not standardized or regulated. I'm glad, however, if others find benefit from it. I'm lucky to be well-controlled with Sinemet 2x day. Take care. Sue W.
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max19bc
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject:
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Hello Poker,
I'm not a PHD'er either, I'm just trying to pass on information that I've found regarding mucuna. I'm doing this, because I want to share my experiences and I care about the pain other PD'ers are going through. I've been there. I'm not sure why mucuna is not promoted more. It's a natural plant extract. For a good review on mucuna, go to: http://www.parkinson.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=459&srcid=379
Here are the benefits that I have experienced so far:
Lots of energy, feel great, no depression, no longer constipated, regained my normal weight back, aches and pain greatly reduced, herbs very inexpensive (costs me less than 50.00 US per month), I'm able to exercise and have rebuilt my muscles back, sexually active again, enhance mental alertness and improve coordination. No side effects. Basically, I've gotten my life back again.
Hi Greentree,
About NADH, I did some more research on it. Here's some info on it:
NADH stimulates cellular production of the neurotransmitters Dopamine, Noradrenaline, and Serotonin, thereby improving mental clarity, alertness, and concentration. NADH is involved in over 1,000 metabolic actions in the body!!!!!!
NADH is directly involved in the body's cellular immune defensive system and the more NADH in your body the better the DNA repair system functions.
NADH, biologically known as Coenzyme 1 (as it is the most important co-enzyme, also known as Co-E1 ), is the reduced form of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) with high energy hydrogen (H) which provides energy to the cell. NADH is necessary for thousands of biochemical reactions within the body and is found naturally in every living cell.
If you want to stay healthy and vital, you will want to absorb sufficient amounts of hydrogen. Hydrogen in its biologically active form—the negatively charged hydrogen anion—is what gives energy to your body cells, activating cell metabolism and optimal cell regeneration. Furthermore, negatively charged hydrogen with its extra electron is a highly efficient antioxidant which is able to neutralize free radicals in your body and thus protects against many illnesses that were previously regarded as due to age.
for more info on NADH you can go to: http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/nad_0179.shtml
or:
http://www.supplementnews.org/nadh/
I would like to say one more thing. If anyone taking Sinemet now, and find it's not working as well anymore, you might want to consider adding mucuna instead of other drugs. I was on Sinemet for 6 months before it started to loose its effectiveness. Fortunately, I found out about mucuna about that time. I've reduced my Sinemet intake from 4 to 5 200/50 tablets a day to only 3/4 of one tablet per day with much better results adding mucuna.
Mucuna will work wonders for anyone suffering from PD.
Take care,
Max
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greentree
Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:04 am Post subject:
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Thank you for your response, Max. Mucuna sounds like a good alternative. I am wondering how my neurologist will respond.
Greentree.
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject:
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My husband was using mucuna pruriens for 2 1/2 years with beneficial results, but his PD has progressed such that it became very burdensome to consume as much as he needed, even with the addition of Lodosyn. Even worse, two neurologists that we have seen had never heard of mucuna pruriens and see RED when you even mention biologically derived products (herbs in their little minds) and have refused to learn anything about it. One very dangerously did not take into account the contribution of mucuna pruriens to the total l-dopa picture in prescribing medications for my husband and then refused to work further with us when he experienced violent side effects as a result. I began to worry about what would happen if my husband became hospitalized, a very real concern in the case of advanced PD. Would the medical professionals in the hospital cooperate with us in administering mucuna pruriens? I very much doubt it. So we have switched over to conventional l-dopa therapy. As time goes on and we get a handle on how much l-dopa my husband needs to take in the form of the generic synthetic that they always prescribe, we may start adding back the mucuna pruriens and cutting down on the synthetic. We just needed to find out what we would need to tell the doctors about how much conventional l-dopa and in what dosing schedule to prescribe in case of hospitalization. I should note that my husband has an atypical response to l-dopa and may have something going on in addition to idiopathic Parkinson's disease. He is very sensitive to changes in dosages and has never responded with full or even near full return of capabilties, but nevertheless, he needs it to avoid dangerously losing body mass and to maintain at least some level of functioning.
Sunny
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject:
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Sunny, I am sorry to hear your husband has progressed to this point.
If I am reading your post correctly, I think you imply that you know the concentration of L-dopa in the Mucuna. Thid would, indeed be very useful information.
I have just started Mucuna again and am taking the pill form from "Herbsforever". They claim that each pill contains 500 mg of pure spray dried Mucuna puriens, "not less than" 15% Aldopa? If Aldopa is L-dopa and their label is correct I could expect tp get at least 75mg l-dopa/pill. I suspect this is a statistical average but have no clue as to the variance.
I have started by taking 1/2 pill in morning, and 1/2 pill early afternoon. I am very sensitive to meds.
This regimen improves my already mild bradykinesia, and improves my energy. It lessens my tremors for about 3 hours, but exacerbates my balance problem, retropulsion, and falling.
My plan is to proceed slowly as the bradykinesia is mild, although I have had PD for 25 years or more(young onset).
I am curious as to your scientific background. I am/was a chemist with General Foods/Kraft for 33 years. After a while I became more of a food scientis by "osmosis".
It is wonderful having you aboard, welcome. You also can serve as a brake from me being able to "snow" the people with jargon.
Peace, joy, health
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject:
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Jack,
No, I don't have a clue about the real concentration of l-dopa in mucuna pruriens or the various extracts that are on the market. We just arrived at my husband's dosage by trial and error. In fact, this lack of knowledge about the real concentration is one of the reasons we switched over to the synthetic preparation. Trying to compare the biological vs the organically synthesized l-dopa milligram for milligram is impossible because there has not been this type of research published. For my husband, I was worried that I would not be able to educate the medical professionals who did not want to use mucuna pruriens in a hospital setting about the dosage of the pharmaceutical product that they are used to that would be needed by him.
As for my scientific background, I worked for 15 years in several university medical and biological research laboratories, and I am now working as a medical writer/editor. I had first-hand experience with the myopic and egocentric viewpoints of scientists and pharmaceutical company employees. I have a great reverence for the scientific method, but I am highly skeptical of the stuff that is published that is claimed to be arrived at through the scientific method, ie, research publications. It takes several well-designed studies from different reputable research institutions to convince me of the truth of something.
Sunny
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:38 am Post subject:
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Sunny, it is possible to compare these substances on an equal L-dopa basis. One can either isolate the L-dopa, or use chromatography to determine it's concentration in a sample. In the case of the Mucuna I would accumulate a large sample of dried and ground Mucuna puriens. Mix it well with a "V-blender", or "ribbon blender". Sub sample several times within the batch and run chromatographic analysis on each sample. Check to make sure the variance is within standard acceptance levels and take a statistical average. This technique is sanctioned by any oversight agency and would pass a peer review.
Doctor Okun was the one who made the original statement if I remember correctly
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:50 am Post subject:
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Sunny, I wish you and your husband the very best of health.
Jack
_________________
"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
Last edited by ahimsajack on Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:53 am Post subject:
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test post for me
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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JaniceB
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 18
Location: SLC
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: pill at Herbsforever
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Jack,
I would like to try the pills. I went to Herbsforever & could only find the bulk powder. Can you tell me what to call it in the search window? Thanks.
Janice
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janiceb
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:
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Janice, try this link, it should put you right on the pills. If for some reason it does not you should search for Mucuna puriens pills.
http://www.satveda.com/product.asp?pID=88&cID=4&c=154632
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject:
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Jack,
I know that it would be possible to do the comparison testing of l-dopa content/bioactivity between mucuna pruriens products and synthetic l-dopa product. I am just not aware of any such published studies. If you were still working in the field, you could publish a paper! I couldn't find the citation in Ask the Doctor that you mentioned. Could you tell me the date it was posted?
Thanks very much for you well wishes.
Sunny
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kmcclung
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject:
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Sunny,
Try this link which was originally provided by Max:
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:37 pm
http://www.parkinson.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=459&srcid=379
Ken
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:54 am Post subject:
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crb wrote:
Jack,
I know that it would be possible to do the comparison testing of l-dopa content/bioactivity between mucuna pruriens products and synthetic l-dopa product. I am just not aware of any such published studies. If you were still working in the field, you could publish a paper! I couldn't find the citation in Ask the Doctor that you mentioned. Could you tell me the date it was posted?
Thanks very much for you well wishes.
Sunny
Sunny, I do not know of any published studies either. I tried to find the quote in "ask the doctor" as well, but I couldn't, otherwise I would have copied and pasted.
I want you and everyone else to know that I am not familiar with the pharmaceutical industry at all, and should not be considered an "expert" by any means. I spent my career as a chemist in new product and process development in the food industry. I have been out of the game for 10 years and have not kept up.
Sunny seems to have a much better grasp of the pharmacology than I do. If you ever need to know about unique means of food preservation and shelf stability I'd be happy to talk with you, otherwise seek Sunny's advice.
Jack
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:57 am Post subject:
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I started mucuna, again, about 5 days ago. I am taking 1/2 pill 3 times a day for a total of 112.5mg l-dopa/day. This has reduced my tremors significantly, sped up my walking, gave me more range of neck movement, and much more energy.
Jack
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John Sh
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:
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Hi Jack, are you taking any lodosyn with the mucuna? How is it going so far? John
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kmcclung
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject:
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Jack,,
Have you been able to reduce the amount of Benedryl that you take?
Ken
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject:
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Ken, I haven't tried yet, but it is on my agenda. Will keep you posted.
Jack
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject:
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Ken,
Thanks for the link to the article. I do remember reading this. The skeptic in me wants to see the actual reports, not summaries of the reports. HOW did they determine the amount of l-dopa? WHAT were the standards applied to the tests etc. WHAT do the results look like? WHAT statistical tests were applied? etc. etc. A lot of the work done on mucuna was done by the folks who are now selling Zandopa. As we know in our country, you can't trust reports from pharmaceutical companies. Even more so when we talk about India. I have nothing against Indian scientists--one of my favorite friends is an Indian scientist, but he has different standards with regard to the scientific method than I think are appropriate (doesn't mind stretching the truth, "massaging the data" if it works for getting ahead, getting a grant funded, etc). (He works for a major pharmaceutical company now, and has found a good home.)
People may think that I am against using mucuna pruriens, but I'm not. We may even weave it back in to the mix of things as time goes on. But let's exercise the appropriate amount of judgment regarding some of these reports that come out. They should all be viewed within the appropriate framework.
My 2 cents . . .
Sunny
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:20 am Post subject:
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John Shaver wrote:
Hi Jack, are you taking any lodosyn with the mucuna? How is it going so far? John
Sorry John I somehow didn't see your post. No, I am not taking Lodosyn. The Mucuna is like a miracle. 1/2pill 3 times a day, and my tremors are almost entirely gone, I am walking faster, more energy, full range of neck movement, I wake up refreshed and limber. One unexpected benefit is it seems to calm me, maybe a synergistic effect with my lorazepam. No side effects except very slight nausea if taken on an empty stomach. I would highly recommend it. To me the theory doesn't matter, it works.
Jack
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:19 am Post subject:
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Jack,
I agree with you. What is important is whether it works for you. That is the bottom line. You have the courage to conduct your own experiment on yourself, with a lot of educated reasons for doing so, and that is the spirit! Another important thing is that you are sharing the results with everyone so they can learn from your experience.
Sunny
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nelly
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 8
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: Zandopa
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Hello everyone,
This is my first time posting on the "open forum" and I am particularly interesting in getting some info on the Zandopa brand of Macuna.
My mother has had Parkinson's for about 27 years. It has slowly progressed to the point of lots of dyskenesia and pain. She was put on levodopa almost immediately after being diognosed at 40 years of age.
My question is: Should I try Zandopa on my mother to alleviate some of her symptoms. My fear is that I may put her in danger if I don't consult her Neurologist. I am in Canada so I don't think the Neurologist will allow such thing. Is Zandopa safe? Or is there a possibility of toxidity? My mother does well with Levodopa, although she does get dyskenisia.
Thanks for your time,
Nelly
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject:
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Nelly, you ask very good questions. I highly recommend you try "Ask the doctor" which is another forum here at NPF.
I will try and give you my understanding. Getting Dyskinesia is one of the potential effects of long term use of l-dopa(sinemet).
If your mother's dyskinesia is in fact due to extended l-dopa use then Mucuna or Zandopa are liable to make the problem worse because they act by delivering l-dopa. Determing if the dyskinesia is due to long time l-dopa use needs to be adressed by a doctor. We can only guess.
I would first determine with a doctor's help what the problem is. If it is not due to l-dopa itself then and only then I would try Mucuna pills by Herbsforever. Zandopa is the powder form and is more difficult to use than the pills. I would consult, or at the very least inform my doctor first.
Jack
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject:
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crb wrote:
Jack,
I agree with you. What is important is whether it works for you. That is the bottom line. You have the courage to conduct your own experiment on yourself, with a lot of educated reasons for doing so, and that is the spirit! Another important thing is that you are sharing the results with everyone so they can learn from your experience.
Sunny
I appreciate your approval Sunny. Yes there was a lot of personal research done before I swallowed the first pill. But most of all I came to a place where I needed something, and my experience with Sinemet was negative. I am very skeptical of the pharmaceutical industry. "I don't trust them". So I gave ayurveda a shot. This is appropriate because I follow the Theravadan Buddhist/Advaita Vedanta Hindu belief systems.
Hey, they work for me. I spent a lifetime being a chemist and being objective and data oriented. I have eleven patents, but so what. I have also found that scientists like me are more than willing to sell out on the truth to the highest bidder. There is , in reality, no more reason to stake your health on science than on a holistic approach. I have found Mucuna to be the poster child to this thinking.
Jack
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nelly
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 8
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: Zandopa
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Hi Jack,
Thanks for your reply. I guess I should clarify that I want to replace some of the sinemet for the Zandopa. I don't want to add to what she is taking, but rather experiment by giving her Macuna instead of sinemet. They say that it has less side effects and I am hoping that it would limit the dyskenisias.
What do you think?
Nelly
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Zandopa
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nelly wrote:
Hi Jack,
Thanks for your reply. I guess I should clarify that I want to replace some of the sinemet for the Zandopa. I don't want to add to what she is taking, but rather experiment by giving her Macuna instead of sinemet. They say that it has less side effects and I am hoping that it would limit the dyskenisias.
What do you think?
Nelly
Nelly, I still think you should consult a doctor. At the least the doctor forum here at NPF. I read your post to say that your mom has been taking sinemet since she was 40. There is a good chance that her dyskinesia is l-dopa induced, from lomg time use. If this is the case continuing l-dopa in any form could be detrimental. I highly suggest you have a doctor adress this issue.
Jack
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samoosh
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Mucuna(Is it safer than Sinemet?)
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Hi,
I'm brand new to the Forum----and am hoping that someone out there possibly can help me.
In addition to PD I have an enzyme deficiency called G6PD which forbids me to have Fava beans. The only 2 natural substances that produce Dopamine are Fava beans and Mucuna, which makes me suspicious that Mucuna might be chemically related to Fava----and if so would also be forbidden!
I have written numerous letters on this question and haven't received any definitive answer.
I doubt if any of you knows the answer but perhaps you can suggest how to go about finding out.
I am very much for natural remedies and would like to be able to take Mucuna.
Thank you very much,-------------Shmulik
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:24 am Post subject:
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Samoosh, it is l-dopa that these beans produce not dopamine. All "flat" beans produce l-dopa to some extent or another, including lima beans, but Fava and Mucuna produce enough to be effective.
The questions seem to me to be 1) what is it in Fava that restricts your using it? 2) Is that same substance in mucuna?
If it is the l-dopa itself then you cannot take sinemet either.
I recommend that you "ask the dietician" forum here at NPF. I remember her adressing this very question, but cannot recall the title of the post.
Jack
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject:
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Hi, this is an update on my Mucuna trial. It has been one week and I have been taking 1/2 pill three times a day about 4.5 hours apart. The Mucuna increases my tremors slightly for about a half hour, then it decreases them significantly for about three hours. It definiteley helps me move faster and easier, and even improves my mood making me calmer. I tried taking a whole pill but it made me nervous and increased my tremors. The same result happened when I took a half pill 2 hours after the previous one.
In summary: it workd well for me at one half pill three times a day.
Jack
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John Sh
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: Hi Jack from John S
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Maybe you can help me a bit, we resemble each other in our responses to the drugs if you remember back. And I have been following your trek trying to find a source of relief from PD. Now that you are on the mucuna again, it sounds like it's gonna help. At least it sounds like it's not making things worse, and we've both been there. In fact I am still there. I tried the mucuna powder 6 months ago, all sizes of dosages, it didn't have a positive affect. I have some more mucuna sitting in front of me, capsules, 350mg, from Swansons. I am going to try it again, one pill per day for a while. Hopefully it won't cause horrible insomnia and nightmares, I sleep pretty good now, and to give that up makes me have a rotten night and a tough day, alot to bear. I am still not on the legitimate meds, I have tried some of them, they all seem to work backwards. But backwards or not, between the flu like, seasick like, nausea like daily living, with a dose of depression from all of this, I am back again saying that something has to help me feel a little better, I've said that before many times. But the stuff always makes me feel worse, and I always decide I felt better before, etc.. So that's where I am at this stage. Shaking, tingly face, constipation, weak ankles, tingly toes, yes, I have it. But I don't have dyskinesia...thanks for allowing me to vent, John S
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:52 am Post subject:
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John, "I hear you". PD and the meds each display an individualized response. Mucuna, nor anything else, is a panacea. I know from working with my psychiatrist that I have a greatly reduced "therapeutic window". This means that I need very little of any brain med, and the normal dosage is way too much for me. I have a pill cutter and start small, then very slowly increase to where I get the desired effect.
The Doctors will prescribe a dose that represents an average therapeutic window. This may be way too much, or not enough. Only you can tell.
Peace, Joy, health
Jack
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zandopa supplier
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 15
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: Zandopa now available in USA
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Dear All,
We would like to take an opportunity to inform you that Zandopa (Mucuna) - a natural remedy for Parkinson's disease is now available in USA.
Further details about Zandopa can be obtained from our website - www.zandopa-usa.com
Thanks
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pokermid
Anonymous
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject:
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I post on this forum to help out my friends.
To listen to them when starting new trends
all of the people with P D on here
suffer in silence, no pain do they fear
I can't understand the Zandopa plot
they're posting on here for money we've got
why do we let them? This place isn't free
this place is for parkies. For you and for me
Big boots and asses are what come to mind
kicking their backsides with hobs that we find
swinging your right leg to marry with mine
nailing these bastards where the sun doesn't shine
Posting this poem on every thread
maybe will stop them from getting them read
we are the policemen patrolling the floor
tell em to beat it and show em the door
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Herald
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 2
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Zandopa
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I have found Zandopa cheaper in an Indian site http://www.ayurvedaforall.com/1263/zandopa-special-bundle.html
We get 6 pieces for $ 40.
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jamest7902
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Mucuna vs Sinemet Safety vs addiction
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Hi folks,
Sinemet has one advantage that Mucuna doesn't , and that is carbidopa.. and I was told that this is important for protecting your other vital organs... (heart valves). Anyone like to comment? Did I hear correctly, or is this a bad science review?
Anyway, there is another complication that occurs with these
issues of a better life by these 'nutritional supplements'. My advice is that you dont play doctor or dietitian with Mucuna. Tendency is for the addict in us to take both Sinemet and Mucuna together, my reasoning was that somehow I found a 'sinemet boost-nirvana', simultaneously hoping that the carbidopa protective effect will take care of the Mucuna-originated excess component of the dopamine excess as well.
Mucuna indeed is powerful 'turbo-charge, and is addictive. It will burn a new neural pathway that you don't want. My advice is stay away. It is also expensive.
In my opinion, I think it ought to be a controlled substance.
Take it from one who was going down the wrong path, and has now seen the light, (dopamine dysregulation syndrome & addict) and hopefully has caught it in time.
Sincerely,
-jt ....a dbs pd'r in California neuromodulating down to sane levels of Sinemet! been off Mucuna for ~ a month now- hey where's my 30 day chip? ;-)
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jamest7902
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: Mucuna vs Sinemet Safety vs addiction
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Hi folks,
Sinemet has one advantage that Mucuna doesn't , and that is carbidopa.. and I was told that this is important for protecting your other vital organs... (heart valves). Anyone like to comment? Did I hear correctly, or is this a bad science review?
Anyway, there is another complication that occurs with these
issues of a better life by so-called 'nutritional supplements'. My advice is that you dont play doctor or dietitian with Mucuna. Tendency is for the addict in us to take both Sinemet and Mucuna together, my reasoning was that somehow I found a 'sinemet boost-nirvana', simultaneously hoping that the carbidopa protective effect will take care of the Mucuna-originated excess component of the dopamine excess as well.
Mucuna indeed is powerful 'turbo-charge', and is addictive. It will burn a new neural pathway that you don't want. My advice is stay away. It is also expensive.
In my opinion, I think it ought to be a controlled substance.
Take it from one who was going down the wrong path, and has now seen the light, (dopamine dysregulation syndrome & addict) and hopefully has caught it in time.
Sincerely,
-jt ....a dbs pd'r in California neuromodulating down to sane levels of Sinemet! been off Mucuna for ~ 3 weeks now- hey where's my 21 day chip? ;-)
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Herald
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 2
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: PD- Ayurvedic view
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Zandopa is a branded medicine from one of the Ayurvedic pharma company in India. This company is not in the first 10 . Ayurveda has a comphrehensive view for the management of PD. Our discussion is moving in a single direction and other options for the PD managements from the alternative ways were ignored. There is a cleaning process in Ayurveda called Panchkarma therapy, which has given symptomatic relief to so many PD patients. It understands the body according to the three basic somatic humours of Ayurveda- Vat, Pitt and Kaph and treatments are designed accordingly.
Ayurveda names PD as Kampa vat and internal medications are aimed to pacify the vat in the body. So a rejuvenative treatment is the best option. Kerala, southern state of India is famous for Panchkarma therapy. Please check the authenticity of the treatment centers there. There are Green leaf and Olive leaf certifications to the centers and one of my friend advised not to go to resorts for the treatment.
You should go to good Ayurvedic hospitals with qualified doctors. English is widely used there. One of my friend completed 21 days treatment for $ 3000 including food and accomodation( his GF also get a free rejuvenation). Sounds good.....
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CBishop
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject:
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As the wife of a PWP who has tried non-drug methods, fava beans, mucuna, Sinemet, and now DBS over the years, I think I can speak from some experience on the matter of mucuna vs Sinemet. At first, I was convinced that taking l-dopa in the natural form found in mucuna seeds was safer than the synthetic pharmaceutical product. But I did a lot of research (I formerly worked as a biomedical scientist) on this and could not find any data to support that assumption.
The disadvantages of taking mucuna powder vs Sinemet include: It is harder to take enough to help; you eventually end up needing to supplement with Lodosyn (carbidopa) or Sinemet (which contains carbidopa) in order to have enough l-dopa in your system to help; it gets really expensive (compared to generic Sinemet covered by health insurance); and MOST IMPORTANT, medical doctors don't understand mucuna, may refuse to cooperate with you, and probably will cause you major problems because they don't understand that mucuna is a concentrated source of l-dopa. The thing that is currently helping my DH a lot is DBS. He's only been turned on less than 2 weeks, and already his tremor is gone as is his stiffness and some of his bradykinesia, all with a 30% reduction in medication. And he stands to gain more benefits as he adjusts to the huge change in his body and the stimulation and medications are fine-tuned. HERE'S THE THING: You probably will never have the opportunity to have DBS if you stay with mucuna. The main criteria for being considered (and approved by health plans) for the surgery are good response to sinemet and maxing out on the benefits you get from medical therapy (as well as the absence of significant cognitive effects). This is something to seriously consider for your future.
Best wishes to you in your PD journey,
Carolynn (aka Sunny)
Here's a couple of examples:
Example#1) http://crisp.cit.nih.gov/crisp/CRISP_LIB.getdoc? textkey=6870829&p_grant_num=1R21AT001607-01A1&p_query=&ticket=19936581&p _audit_session_id=88437379&p_keywords=
Aurveda is an indegenious medical practice of India. Recent investigations indicate the Aurvedic medicinal compound Mucuna pruriens is effective in improving Parkinsonism. Patients with Parkinson's disease (PD) develop severe and often disabling side effects after 3-5 years of medical therapy with currently available medications used in modern medicine. Review of Aurvedic scriptures and consultation with practitioners of Aurveda indicate that PD patients treated with Aurvedic medications containing Mucuna pruriens do not develop disabling side effects........
Example#2)
http://www.vedicspa.com/kaunch.html
Research Update
In a a randomised, controlled, double blind crossover trial published on Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, Psychiatry, the clinical effects of levodopa L-dopa/carbidopa (LD/CD) are compared with two different doses of mucuna preparation. Eight Parkinson's disease patients were given with single doses of 200/50 mg LD/CD, or 15 and 30 g of mucuna preparation in randomised order. Compared with standard LD/CD, the 30 g mucuna preparation led to a considerably faster onset of effect (34.6 v 68.5 min; p = 0.021), Mean on time was 21.9% (37 min) longer, peak L-dopa plasma concentrations were 110% higher and the area under the plasma concentration v time curve (area under curve) was 165.3% larger (p = 0.012). The rapid onset of action and longer on time without concomitant increase in dyskinesias on mucuna seed powder formulation suggest that this natural source of L- dopa might possess advantages over conventional L-dopa preparations in the long term management of PD.
Despite the fact Mucuna was used in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease in ancient times, it is still important today to establish that the drug dose not have adverse effects on various vital organs. This was accomplished by administering low to very high doses of the drug in rats and rabbits and testing the effect of Mucuna on blood chemistry and blood count (such as the one that many physicians perform in their offices and the hospitals) and various organs. Some of the tests were done for as long as one year and the results indicated no adverse effects were present from Mucuna preparations.
To establish how Mucuna would compare to synthetic L-DOPA, experiments were undertaken in animal models of Parkinson’s disease. Two different doses of synthetic L-DOPA and two different doses of Mucuna were administered making sure that the amount of L-DOPA present is the same in Mucuna as was the doses of synthetic L-DOPA. The effects of the drugs were tested using a specially designed instrument called "Rotometer." Dose for dose, Mucuna was two to three times more effective than equivalent amounts of synthetic L-DOPA. This suggests that Mucuna may contain compounds that make L-DOPA function better such as carbidopa, tolcapone (Tasmar), or entacapone (COMTan). It may also suggest that Mucuna independently improve symptoms of Parkinson’s disease. Although quite encouraging, more research is needed to confirm these findings. This work was done at the time when the United States Congress established the Office of Alternative Medicine in the National Institute of Health and the work was one of the first to receive funding for alternative medicine.
Additional studies in India were undertaken to establish the benefit of HP200 in patients with Parkinson’s disease. Four medical centers were selected involving sixty patients and several neurologists. The studies were conducted for three months. During that time, the patients received HP200 while no concomitant L-DOPA preparations were administered. Trained neurologists monitored changes in the degree of patent’s symptoms and any side effects. At the end of the study, it was determined that the HP200 was highly beneficial in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease. The side effects were minimal. HP200 was approved by the Indian Food and Drug Administration and is available in India under the brand name Zandopa. Further, the cost of the drug was much cheaper compared to the synthetic drugs; thus it became more affordable to the patients. The United States Food and Drug Administration approve the drug for clinical studies, however, it is not available from the pharmacist.
Work on the Mucuna for Parkinson’s disease is being continued. The importance of this particular study is not that Mucuna is an alternative to L-DOPA, rather it is that compounds occurring naturally in plants for example, may contain biologically active components that can be isolated, tested, and used to provide safer and better treatments for Parkinson’s disease.
Example #3)
http://www.parkinson.org/site/pp.asp?c=9dJFJLPwB&b=184301
.......Despite the fact Mucuna was used in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease in ancient times, it is still important today to establish that the drug dose not have adverse effects on various vital organs. This was accomplished by administering low to very high doses of the drug in rats and rabbits and testing the effect of Mucuna on blood chemistry and blood count (such as the one that many physicians perform in their offices and the hospitals) and various organs. Some of the tests were done for as long as one year and the results indicated no adverse effects were present from Mucuna preparations.
To establish how Mucuna would compare to synthetic L-DOPA, experiments were undertaken in animal models of Parkinson’s disease. Two different doses of synthetic L-DOPA and two different doses of Mucuna were administered making sure that the amount of L-DOPA present is the same in Mucuna as was the doses of synthetic L-DOPA. The effects of the drugs were tested using a specially designed instrument called "Rotometer." Dose for dose, Mucuna was two to three times more effective than equivalent amounts of synthetic L-DOPA. This suggests that Mucuna may contain compounds that make L-DOPA function better such as carbidopa, tolcapone (Tasmar), or entacapone (COMTan). It may also suggest that Mucuna independently improve symptoms of Parkinson’s disease. Although quite encouraging, more research is needed to confirm these findings. This work was done at the time when the United States Congress established the Office of Alternative Medicine in the National Institute of Health and the work was one of the first to receive funding for alternative medicine......
Example #4)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15548480&query_hl=2
..........No significant differences in dyskinesias or tolerability occurred. CONCLUSIONS: The rapid onset of action and longer on time without concomitant increase in dyskinesias on mucuna seed powder formulation suggest that this natural source of L-dopa might possess advantages over conventional L-dopa preparations in the long term management of PD.......
Example #5) Rat study (I don't approve of animal studies, but this one is interesting)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15478206&query_hl=2
.......Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder significantly increased the brain mitochondrial complex-I activity but did not affect the total monoamine oxidase activity (in vitro). Unlike synthetic levodopa treatment, Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder treatment significantly restored the endogenous levodopa, dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin content in the substantia nigra. Nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) and coenzyme Q-10, that are shown to have a therapeutic benefit in Parkinson's disease, were present in the Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder. Earlier studies showed that Mucuna pruriens treatment controls the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. This additional finding of a neurorestorative benefit by Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the degenerating dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra may be due to increased complex-I activity and the presence of NADH and coenzyme Q-10.........
I hope this info is helpful for anyone considering taking "Mucuna". I haven't been taking it for long, less than eight months, but I find it very beneficial.
I suspect that Zandopa (Mucuna from India HP-200) might contain other beneficial ingredients besides mucuna. I haven't been able to find this out jet. I've tried raw mucuna (powder and capsules), but it makes me a little anxious. I was probably taking to much at first.
I found Zandopa (mucuna from India HP-200) works much better for me, lasts longer, don't get anxious, or any side effects, but they do add a sweetener to make it more palatable. My source for Zandopa is: http://mall.coimbatore.com/bnh/zandu/zandopa.htm
Sincerely, Max
PS Some of these links are no longer current, but I did get them within the last 4 months.
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jojobean
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: salt Lake city, Utah
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: Mucana
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thanks Max and welcome to the forum.
where can one buy this product? How much?
I want to forward this to Tony Jordan Pd'r and his mom now one also.
I'll try but if it won't forward can someone help me out?
JoJo
_________________
jojobean (alias Jo, JoAnn,
or
The Good witch of the North,
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John Sh
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:36 am Post subject:
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Max, what would a very conservative dosage of Zandopa be for a starting PDer? I am like Jack, in that I am subject to all kinds of side effects, but for all intents and purposes, am unmedicated at present. Just curious. I have had slowly progressing PD for 10 years, and I am ready for some help. I may send off for some of this and give it a try. I have never tried the capsules. Thanks, John S
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JaniceB
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 18
Location: SLC
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: mucuna
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Max, I have been reading your posts & have found them very helpful. I started taking mucuna 2 mo. ago & I am very happy with the results. Before I was so limited in my movement I was ready to give up. Thanks to your input & an understanding NP I can take care of myself again. I started with a combo of Sinemet & mucuna but now I take Lodosyn with the mucuna & have no side effects. With the Sinemet I was nauseous & had mild toe tapping & shoulder shrugging.
Question: I have ordered the mucuna from 3 sources. I got the first from garrysun.com, it was light colored & tasted like flowers (or what I think flowers would taste like). Then I got the Zandopa which is too sweet & slightly darker in color. The last was from herbsforever & is dark brown & tastes burnt. Have you tried multiple sources & if so have you noticed a difference in potency? Please keep posting your progress. Thanks, Janice
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janiceb
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max19bc
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:03 am Post subject:
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Hi Jo Jo,
I found two sources for "Zandopa" (HP-200 mucuna from India)
Go to:http://mall.coimbatore.com/bnh/zandu/zandopa.htm
They charge 12.95 US for 175 gms of mucuna powder. I live in Canada, and don't have any problems getting it here. Not sure if you can get in the States. It's still not FDA approved yet, still in the testing stage.
Someone just informed me that you can get Zandopa directly from the manufacturer, Zandu. I haven't tried it myself yet, but I'll try in my next order. You can e-mail them at : [email protected]
They've included the following info in their e-mail to him: "Regarding Zandopa for USA Market. There is no distributor as such in USA. Our Customers are requesting the product directly from us (India). Kindly note that we can forward Zandopa (HP-200) bottles to your address through courier and with the required documents. We feel that by producing Doctor’s prescription you can clear your Customs. Since, we are registered with US FDA under Bio-terrorism Act, entry into USA will be easy. A bottle of 175g powders is priced at 4.50 US $ FOB Mumbai and courier charges as applicable (actual). You can inform us your requirement and we will submit a Proforma Invoice giving details of payment. Please give us your email address as well contact details for further communication. Please note that the test of herbal formulation is not fixed. This is mainly due to the herbs use in the formulation and prepared as per the guidelines given by authorities. One of the excipients in HP 200 is sugar and hence one may get sweet test. It helps to take the medicine orally. This particular product got IDM number from USA and many doctors from Europe are prescribing HP 200 to fight against Parkinsonism."
Our Contacts details are as under.
Mr. V. B Potdar – Export Manager
Tel. +91 22 24307021, 39800350
Email – [email protected]
Regards, V.B. Potdar Export Manager
If you can get it from them directly, it sure is a lot cheaper.
I've only tried mucuna from Zandopa and HerbsForever in California. Herbsforever website is:
http://www.satveda.com/ They sell both the powder and tablets.
I like Zandopa the best, but it is sweet.
Others mucuna sources ( I haven't tried any of these) in the States are:
http://www.tattvasherbs.com/mucuna.htm
http://www.americannutrition.com/store/Mucuna.html
http://www.herbal-powers.com/macunapruriens1.html
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&productId=16813&R=14006&healthConcernDropBox=null&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&keyword=Mucuna+Pruriens&Ntt=Mucuna+Pruriens&N=4294967187&brandDropBox=null&productDropBox=Mucuna+Pruriens&Ntk=Level1
http://garrysun.com/kaunch.html
http://searchportal.information.com/
To answer your next question of forwarding this information, try copy (the info) and paste it in your next e-mail.
Hi John S
If you decide to try mucuna, I suggest you take slowly and only small amounts to start. It seems that some people have a hard time accepting it, it makes them nauseous. If you feel sick, try eating some crackers afterwards, it seems to help. The tablets are easier to take, but takes longer to kick in. I still use them, especially if I'm away from home. I always take mucuna on an empty stomach. Mucuna is a herb, the potency will vary from one supplier to another, how old it is, crop variations, etc. You'll have to experiment on how much to take. It will take awhile (maybe a week or two before you will notice an effect), for me I did noticed an effect the very first day, probably because I took to much. If your feeling anxious, hyper or antsy, you know you're taking to much. I was taking Sinemet before I started mucuna, so I gradually reduced my dosage of 4 to 5 tablets of 200/50 Sinemet CR a day to, to now I only take 1 tablet a day (I break it into quarters). I did this transition slowly over a couple of months. I'm still trying to cut out the Sinemet completely.
Hello Janiceb,
I'm really glad to hear that you are happy with your mucuna results. I'm going to check out Lodosyn more, sounds like a good replacement for Sinemet for now. Can you tell me more about this drug? I agree with you about the different flavors and potency of mucuna out there, that's probably why doctors don't know how to prescribe it.
If I knew about mucuna years ago, I definitely would of tried it before I started Sinemet. It's a natural plant product, and I feel great using it. When it kicks in, I'm almost normal, I can walk, jog, run, ride my bike, etc. Not bad considering I was ready for a wheelchair 18 months ago, but that was because I had pd for 5 years already and I was unmediated (tried a lot alternate treatments without much success).
So far this mucuna is amazing........
Take care and GOOD LUCK,
Max
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JaniceB
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 18
Location: SLC
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: lodosyn
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Max,
I take one 25 mg tab of lodosyn (carbadopa) with each dose of mucuna. I have to specially order it as no pharmacies carry it since there isn't a demand for it. I am still trying to optimize the amount of mucuna. My ability to move is a lot better even in the "off" times (I never go back to what I was)) but I am at best only 75%. I am happy nonetheless. I could never have typed this 2 mo. ago. Is your Herbsforever mucuna darker or did I get burnt batch? Janice
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janiceb
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Gautam
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 88
Location: Goa, India
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: Mucuna / Zandopa
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Hi Max & Janice,
Good to hear the positive comments on Zandopa. I have been taking it for the past 18 months now and find that the recommended replacement dosage of 2 x 7.5 gms for one tablet of Sinemet 100/ 25 a bit too high. I take 5 gms of zandopa in replacement of one Sinemet tablet and am trying to reduce it further. I have a brochure of Zandopa which has been scanned and converted in to an 'MS Word' file and can mail it to who ever is interested in reading it.
Gautam
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kmcclung
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Post subject: Mucuna / Zandopa
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Hi Gautam,
I would like to have the information. I modified my profile to show my address.
Have you lived in the U.S.?
Ken
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max19bc
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject:
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Hi Janice, The powered mucuna, I received from HerbsForever is darker than Zandopa, but still light in color. Maybe your batch is just darker, you might want to ask your HerbsForever if this is normal.
Hi Gautam, I'm so glad to hear that Zandopa is working so well for you.
Max
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greentree
Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Mucuna (Is it safer than Sinemet?)
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Max, I excerpted the paragraph below from an April 27, 2007 post of yours because I am intrigued by the mention of "nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) in mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder. Is this the same compound that is in cigarettes?
Two brothers and I all have Parkinson's and took Sinemet. One of my brothers heard about the study that indicated that nicotine helped the tremor of Parkinson's, so he started smoking again after many years of abstinence. He is now a chain smoker and swears he doesn't have PD any more! His tremor is gone after years of shaking quite badly. My father died at the age of 50 of a sudden heart attack and had been a smoker all his life, so I would never recommend smoking for PD. But I am wondering about the NADH in Mucuna. Is this the same harmful compound that is in cigarettes? Here is the paragraph that was in your April 27 post.
.......Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder significantly increased the brain mitochondrial complex-I activity but did not affect the total monoamine oxidase activity (in vitro). Unlike synthetic levodopa treatment, Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder treatment significantly restored the endogenous levodopa, dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin content in the substantia nigra. Nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) and coenzyme Q-10, that are shown to have a therapeutic benefit in Parkinson's disease, were present in the Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder.
greentree
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pokermid
Anonymous
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject:
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hi max
i,ve got PD not a PHD
CAN YOU EXPLAIN IN SIMPLE TERMS PLEASE.
poker
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pokermid
Anonymous
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject:
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how ignorant of me
hi sue , jack , ken , and leonard
hows it swinging
poker
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wheelersce
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 736
Location: MI
Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject:
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Hey, Poker,
Thanks for the greeting. I'm doing fine; been hoping to hear you're feeling ok. Almost skipped this topic, as I can't get into the mucuna stuff. My main prejudice against it, is that (like all nutrititional supplements in the U.S.) it's not standardized or regulated. I'm glad, however, if others find benefit from it. I'm lucky to be well-controlled with Sinemet 2x day. Take care. Sue W.
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max19bc
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject:
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Hello Poker,
I'm not a PHD'er either, I'm just trying to pass on information that I've found regarding mucuna. I'm doing this, because I want to share my experiences and I care about the pain other PD'ers are going through. I've been there. I'm not sure why mucuna is not promoted more. It's a natural plant extract. For a good review on mucuna, go to: http://www.parkinson.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=459&srcid=379
Here are the benefits that I have experienced so far:
Lots of energy, feel great, no depression, no longer constipated, regained my normal weight back, aches and pain greatly reduced, herbs very inexpensive (costs me less than 50.00 US per month), I'm able to exercise and have rebuilt my muscles back, sexually active again, enhance mental alertness and improve coordination. No side effects. Basically, I've gotten my life back again.
Hi Greentree,
About NADH, I did some more research on it. Here's some info on it:
NADH stimulates cellular production of the neurotransmitters Dopamine, Noradrenaline, and Serotonin, thereby improving mental clarity, alertness, and concentration. NADH is involved in over 1,000 metabolic actions in the body!!!!!!
NADH is directly involved in the body's cellular immune defensive system and the more NADH in your body the better the DNA repair system functions.
NADH, biologically known as Coenzyme 1 (as it is the most important co-enzyme, also known as Co-E1 ), is the reduced form of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) with high energy hydrogen (H) which provides energy to the cell. NADH is necessary for thousands of biochemical reactions within the body and is found naturally in every living cell.
If you want to stay healthy and vital, you will want to absorb sufficient amounts of hydrogen. Hydrogen in its biologically active form—the negatively charged hydrogen anion—is what gives energy to your body cells, activating cell metabolism and optimal cell regeneration. Furthermore, negatively charged hydrogen with its extra electron is a highly efficient antioxidant which is able to neutralize free radicals in your body and thus protects against many illnesses that were previously regarded as due to age.
for more info on NADH you can go to: http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/nad_0179.shtml
or:
http://www.supplementnews.org/nadh/
I would like to say one more thing. If anyone taking Sinemet now, and find it's not working as well anymore, you might want to consider adding mucuna instead of other drugs. I was on Sinemet for 6 months before it started to loose its effectiveness. Fortunately, I found out about mucuna about that time. I've reduced my Sinemet intake from 4 to 5 200/50 tablets a day to only 3/4 of one tablet per day with much better results adding mucuna.
Mucuna will work wonders for anyone suffering from PD.
Take care,
Max
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greentree
Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:04 am Post subject:
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Thank you for your response, Max. Mucuna sounds like a good alternative. I am wondering how my neurologist will respond.
Greentree.
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject:
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My husband was using mucuna pruriens for 2 1/2 years with beneficial results, but his PD has progressed such that it became very burdensome to consume as much as he needed, even with the addition of Lodosyn. Even worse, two neurologists that we have seen had never heard of mucuna pruriens and see RED when you even mention biologically derived products (herbs in their little minds) and have refused to learn anything about it. One very dangerously did not take into account the contribution of mucuna pruriens to the total l-dopa picture in prescribing medications for my husband and then refused to work further with us when he experienced violent side effects as a result. I began to worry about what would happen if my husband became hospitalized, a very real concern in the case of advanced PD. Would the medical professionals in the hospital cooperate with us in administering mucuna pruriens? I very much doubt it. So we have switched over to conventional l-dopa therapy. As time goes on and we get a handle on how much l-dopa my husband needs to take in the form of the generic synthetic that they always prescribe, we may start adding back the mucuna pruriens and cutting down on the synthetic. We just needed to find out what we would need to tell the doctors about how much conventional l-dopa and in what dosing schedule to prescribe in case of hospitalization. I should note that my husband has an atypical response to l-dopa and may have something going on in addition to idiopathic Parkinson's disease. He is very sensitive to changes in dosages and has never responded with full or even near full return of capabilties, but nevertheless, he needs it to avoid dangerously losing body mass and to maintain at least some level of functioning.
Sunny
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject:
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Sunny, I am sorry to hear your husband has progressed to this point.
If I am reading your post correctly, I think you imply that you know the concentration of L-dopa in the Mucuna. Thid would, indeed be very useful information.
I have just started Mucuna again and am taking the pill form from "Herbsforever". They claim that each pill contains 500 mg of pure spray dried Mucuna puriens, "not less than" 15% Aldopa? If Aldopa is L-dopa and their label is correct I could expect tp get at least 75mg l-dopa/pill. I suspect this is a statistical average but have no clue as to the variance.
I have started by taking 1/2 pill in morning, and 1/2 pill early afternoon. I am very sensitive to meds.
This regimen improves my already mild bradykinesia, and improves my energy. It lessens my tremors for about 3 hours, but exacerbates my balance problem, retropulsion, and falling.
My plan is to proceed slowly as the bradykinesia is mild, although I have had PD for 25 years or more(young onset).
I am curious as to your scientific background. I am/was a chemist with General Foods/Kraft for 33 years. After a while I became more of a food scientis by "osmosis".
It is wonderful having you aboard, welcome. You also can serve as a brake from me being able to "snow" the people with jargon.
Peace, joy, health
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject:
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Jack,
No, I don't have a clue about the real concentration of l-dopa in mucuna pruriens or the various extracts that are on the market. We just arrived at my husband's dosage by trial and error. In fact, this lack of knowledge about the real concentration is one of the reasons we switched over to the synthetic preparation. Trying to compare the biological vs the organically synthesized l-dopa milligram for milligram is impossible because there has not been this type of research published. For my husband, I was worried that I would not be able to educate the medical professionals who did not want to use mucuna pruriens in a hospital setting about the dosage of the pharmaceutical product that they are used to that would be needed by him.
As for my scientific background, I worked for 15 years in several university medical and biological research laboratories, and I am now working as a medical writer/editor. I had first-hand experience with the myopic and egocentric viewpoints of scientists and pharmaceutical company employees. I have a great reverence for the scientific method, but I am highly skeptical of the stuff that is published that is claimed to be arrived at through the scientific method, ie, research publications. It takes several well-designed studies from different reputable research institutions to convince me of the truth of something.
Sunny
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:38 am Post subject:
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Sunny, it is possible to compare these substances on an equal L-dopa basis. One can either isolate the L-dopa, or use chromatography to determine it's concentration in a sample. In the case of the Mucuna I would accumulate a large sample of dried and ground Mucuna puriens. Mix it well with a "V-blender", or "ribbon blender". Sub sample several times within the batch and run chromatographic analysis on each sample. Check to make sure the variance is within standard acceptance levels and take a statistical average. This technique is sanctioned by any oversight agency and would pass a peer review.
Doctor Okun was the one who made the original statement if I remember correctly
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:50 am Post subject:
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Sunny, I wish you and your husband the very best of health.
Jack
_________________
"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
Last edited by ahimsajack on Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:53 am Post subject:
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test post for me
_________________
"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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JaniceB
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 18
Location: SLC
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: pill at Herbsforever
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Jack,
I would like to try the pills. I went to Herbsforever & could only find the bulk powder. Can you tell me what to call it in the search window? Thanks.
Janice
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janiceb
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:
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Janice, try this link, it should put you right on the pills. If for some reason it does not you should search for Mucuna puriens pills.
http://www.satveda.com/product.asp?pID=88&cID=4&c=154632
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject:
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Jack,
I know that it would be possible to do the comparison testing of l-dopa content/bioactivity between mucuna pruriens products and synthetic l-dopa product. I am just not aware of any such published studies. If you were still working in the field, you could publish a paper! I couldn't find the citation in Ask the Doctor that you mentioned. Could you tell me the date it was posted?
Thanks very much for you well wishes.
Sunny
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kmcclung
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject:
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Sunny,
Try this link which was originally provided by Max:
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:37 pm
http://www.parkinson.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=459&srcid=379
Ken
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:54 am Post subject:
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crb wrote:
Jack,
I know that it would be possible to do the comparison testing of l-dopa content/bioactivity between mucuna pruriens products and synthetic l-dopa product. I am just not aware of any such published studies. If you were still working in the field, you could publish a paper! I couldn't find the citation in Ask the Doctor that you mentioned. Could you tell me the date it was posted?
Thanks very much for you well wishes.
Sunny
Sunny, I do not know of any published studies either. I tried to find the quote in "ask the doctor" as well, but I couldn't, otherwise I would have copied and pasted.
I want you and everyone else to know that I am not familiar with the pharmaceutical industry at all, and should not be considered an "expert" by any means. I spent my career as a chemist in new product and process development in the food industry. I have been out of the game for 10 years and have not kept up.
Sunny seems to have a much better grasp of the pharmacology than I do. If you ever need to know about unique means of food preservation and shelf stability I'd be happy to talk with you, otherwise seek Sunny's advice.
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:57 am Post subject:
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I started mucuna, again, about 5 days ago. I am taking 1/2 pill 3 times a day for a total of 112.5mg l-dopa/day. This has reduced my tremors significantly, sped up my walking, gave me more range of neck movement, and much more energy.
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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John Sh
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:
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Hi Jack, are you taking any lodosyn with the mucuna? How is it going so far? John
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kmcclung
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject:
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Jack,,
Have you been able to reduce the amount of Benedryl that you take?
Ken
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject:
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Ken, I haven't tried yet, but it is on my agenda. Will keep you posted.
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject:
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Ken,
Thanks for the link to the article. I do remember reading this. The skeptic in me wants to see the actual reports, not summaries of the reports. HOW did they determine the amount of l-dopa? WHAT were the standards applied to the tests etc. WHAT do the results look like? WHAT statistical tests were applied? etc. etc. A lot of the work done on mucuna was done by the folks who are now selling Zandopa. As we know in our country, you can't trust reports from pharmaceutical companies. Even more so when we talk about India. I have nothing against Indian scientists--one of my favorite friends is an Indian scientist, but he has different standards with regard to the scientific method than I think are appropriate (doesn't mind stretching the truth, "massaging the data" if it works for getting ahead, getting a grant funded, etc). (He works for a major pharmaceutical company now, and has found a good home.)
People may think that I am against using mucuna pruriens, but I'm not. We may even weave it back in to the mix of things as time goes on. But let's exercise the appropriate amount of judgment regarding some of these reports that come out. They should all be viewed within the appropriate framework.
My 2 cents . . .
Sunny
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:20 am Post subject:
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John Shaver wrote:
Hi Jack, are you taking any lodosyn with the mucuna? How is it going so far? John
Sorry John I somehow didn't see your post. No, I am not taking Lodosyn. The Mucuna is like a miracle. 1/2pill 3 times a day, and my tremors are almost entirely gone, I am walking faster, more energy, full range of neck movement, I wake up refreshed and limber. One unexpected benefit is it seems to calm me, maybe a synergistic effect with my lorazepam. No side effects except very slight nausea if taken on an empty stomach. I would highly recommend it. To me the theory doesn't matter, it works.
Jack
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"We are what we think......With our thoughts we create our world"
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crb
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:19 am Post subject:
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Jack,
I agree with you. What is important is whether it works for you. That is the bottom line. You have the courage to conduct your own experiment on yourself, with a lot of educated reasons for doing so, and that is the spirit! Another important thing is that you are sharing the results with everyone so they can learn from your experience.
Sunny
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nelly
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 8
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: Zandopa
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Hello everyone,
This is my first time posting on the "open forum" and I am particularly interesting in getting some info on the Zandopa brand of Macuna.
My mother has had Parkinson's for about 27 years. It has slowly progressed to the point of lots of dyskenesia and pain. She was put on levodopa almost immediately after being diognosed at 40 years of age.
My question is: Should I try Zandopa on my mother to alleviate some of her symptoms. My fear is that I may put her in danger if I don't consult her Neurologist. I am in Canada so I don't think the Neurologist will allow such thing. Is Zandopa safe? Or is there a possibility of toxidity? My mother does well with Levodopa, although she does get dyskenisia.
Thanks for your time,
Nelly
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject:
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Nelly, you ask very good questions. I highly recommend you try "Ask the doctor" which is another forum here at NPF.
I will try and give you my understanding. Getting Dyskinesia is one of the potential effects of long term use of l-dopa(sinemet).
If your mother's dyskinesia is in fact due to extended l-dopa use then Mucuna or Zandopa are liable to make the problem worse because they act by delivering l-dopa. Determing if the dyskinesia is due to long time l-dopa use needs to be adressed by a doctor. We can only guess.
I would first determine with a doctor's help what the problem is. If it is not due to l-dopa itself then and only then I would try Mucuna pills by Herbsforever. Zandopa is the powder form and is more difficult to use than the pills. I would consult, or at the very least inform my doctor first.
Jack
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject:
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crb wrote:
Jack,
I agree with you. What is important is whether it works for you. That is the bottom line. You have the courage to conduct your own experiment on yourself, with a lot of educated reasons for doing so, and that is the spirit! Another important thing is that you are sharing the results with everyone so they can learn from your experience.
Sunny
I appreciate your approval Sunny. Yes there was a lot of personal research done before I swallowed the first pill. But most of all I came to a place where I needed something, and my experience with Sinemet was negative. I am very skeptical of the pharmaceutical industry. "I don't trust them". So I gave ayurveda a shot. This is appropriate because I follow the Theravadan Buddhist/Advaita Vedanta Hindu belief systems.
Hey, they work for me. I spent a lifetime being a chemist and being objective and data oriented. I have eleven patents, but so what. I have also found that scientists like me are more than willing to sell out on the truth to the highest bidder. There is , in reality, no more reason to stake your health on science than on a holistic approach. I have found Mucuna to be the poster child to this thinking.
Jack
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nelly
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 8
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: Zandopa
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Hi Jack,
Thanks for your reply. I guess I should clarify that I want to replace some of the sinemet for the Zandopa. I don't want to add to what she is taking, but rather experiment by giving her Macuna instead of sinemet. They say that it has less side effects and I am hoping that it would limit the dyskenisias.
What do you think?
Nelly
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Zandopa
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nelly wrote:
Hi Jack,
Thanks for your reply. I guess I should clarify that I want to replace some of the sinemet for the Zandopa. I don't want to add to what she is taking, but rather experiment by giving her Macuna instead of sinemet. They say that it has less side effects and I am hoping that it would limit the dyskenisias.
What do you think?
Nelly
Nelly, I still think you should consult a doctor. At the least the doctor forum here at NPF. I read your post to say that your mom has been taking sinemet since she was 40. There is a good chance that her dyskinesia is l-dopa induced, from lomg time use. If this is the case continuing l-dopa in any form could be detrimental. I highly suggest you have a doctor adress this issue.
Jack
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samoosh
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Mucuna(Is it safer than Sinemet?)
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Hi,
I'm brand new to the Forum----and am hoping that someone out there possibly can help me.
In addition to PD I have an enzyme deficiency called G6PD which forbids me to have Fava beans. The only 2 natural substances that produce Dopamine are Fava beans and Mucuna, which makes me suspicious that Mucuna might be chemically related to Fava----and if so would also be forbidden!
I have written numerous letters on this question and haven't received any definitive answer.
I doubt if any of you knows the answer but perhaps you can suggest how to go about finding out.
I am very much for natural remedies and would like to be able to take Mucuna.
Thank you very much,-------------Shmulik
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:24 am Post subject:
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Samoosh, it is l-dopa that these beans produce not dopamine. All "flat" beans produce l-dopa to some extent or another, including lima beans, but Fava and Mucuna produce enough to be effective.
The questions seem to me to be 1) what is it in Fava that restricts your using it? 2) Is that same substance in mucuna?
If it is the l-dopa itself then you cannot take sinemet either.
I recommend that you "ask the dietician" forum here at NPF. I remember her adressing this very question, but cannot recall the title of the post.
Jack
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject:
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Hi, this is an update on my Mucuna trial. It has been one week and I have been taking 1/2 pill three times a day about 4.5 hours apart. The Mucuna increases my tremors slightly for about a half hour, then it decreases them significantly for about three hours. It definiteley helps me move faster and easier, and even improves my mood making me calmer. I tried taking a whole pill but it made me nervous and increased my tremors. The same result happened when I took a half pill 2 hours after the previous one.
In summary: it workd well for me at one half pill three times a day.
Jack
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John Sh
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Arroyo Grande, California
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: Hi Jack from John S
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Maybe you can help me a bit, we resemble each other in our responses to the drugs if you remember back. And I have been following your trek trying to find a source of relief from PD. Now that you are on the mucuna again, it sounds like it's gonna help. At least it sounds like it's not making things worse, and we've both been there. In fact I am still there. I tried the mucuna powder 6 months ago, all sizes of dosages, it didn't have a positive affect. I have some more mucuna sitting in front of me, capsules, 350mg, from Swansons. I am going to try it again, one pill per day for a while. Hopefully it won't cause horrible insomnia and nightmares, I sleep pretty good now, and to give that up makes me have a rotten night and a tough day, alot to bear. I am still not on the legitimate meds, I have tried some of them, they all seem to work backwards. But backwards or not, between the flu like, seasick like, nausea like daily living, with a dose of depression from all of this, I am back again saying that something has to help me feel a little better, I've said that before many times. But the stuff always makes me feel worse, and I always decide I felt better before, etc.. So that's where I am at this stage. Shaking, tingly face, constipation, weak ankles, tingly toes, yes, I have it. But I don't have dyskinesia...thanks for allowing me to vent, John S
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ahimsajack
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 737
Location: Hudson Valley
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:52 am Post subject:
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John, "I hear you". PD and the meds each display an individualized response. Mucuna, nor anything else, is a panacea. I know from working with my psychiatrist that I have a greatly reduced "therapeutic window". This means that I need very little of any brain med, and the normal dosage is way too much for me. I have a pill cutter and start small, then very slowly increase to where I get the desired effect.
The Doctors will prescribe a dose that represents an average therapeutic window. This may be way too much, or not enough. Only you can tell.
Peace, Joy, health
Jack
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zandopa supplier
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 15
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: Zandopa now available in USA
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Dear All,
We would like to take an opportunity to inform you that Zandopa (Mucuna) - a natural remedy for Parkinson's disease is now available in USA.
Further details about Zandopa can be obtained from our website - www.zandopa-usa.com
Thanks
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pokermid
Anonymous
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject:
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I post on this forum to help out my friends.
To listen to them when starting new trends
all of the people with P D on here
suffer in silence, no pain do they fear
I can't understand the Zandopa plot
they're posting on here for money we've got
why do we let them? This place isn't free
this place is for parkies. For you and for me
Big boots and asses are what come to mind
kicking their backsides with hobs that we find
swinging your right leg to marry with mine
nailing these bastards where the sun doesn't shine
Posting this poem on every thread
maybe will stop them from getting them read
we are the policemen patrolling the floor
tell em to beat it and show em the door
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Herald
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 2
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Zandopa
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I have found Zandopa cheaper in an Indian site http://www.ayurvedaforall.com/1263/zandopa-special-bundle.html
We get 6 pieces for $ 40.
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jamest7902
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Mucuna vs Sinemet Safety vs addiction
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Hi folks,
Sinemet has one advantage that Mucuna doesn't , and that is carbidopa.. and I was told that this is important for protecting your other vital organs... (heart valves). Anyone like to comment? Did I hear correctly, or is this a bad science review?
Anyway, there is another complication that occurs with these
issues of a better life by these 'nutritional supplements'. My advice is that you dont play doctor or dietitian with Mucuna. Tendency is for the addict in us to take both Sinemet and Mucuna together, my reasoning was that somehow I found a 'sinemet boost-nirvana', simultaneously hoping that the carbidopa protective effect will take care of the Mucuna-originated excess component of the dopamine excess as well.
Mucuna indeed is powerful 'turbo-charge, and is addictive. It will burn a new neural pathway that you don't want. My advice is stay away. It is also expensive.
In my opinion, I think it ought to be a controlled substance.
Take it from one who was going down the wrong path, and has now seen the light, (dopamine dysregulation syndrome & addict) and hopefully has caught it in time.
Sincerely,
-jt ....a dbs pd'r in California neuromodulating down to sane levels of Sinemet! been off Mucuna for ~ a month now- hey where's my 30 day chip? ;-)
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jamest7902
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: Mucuna vs Sinemet Safety vs addiction
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Hi folks,
Sinemet has one advantage that Mucuna doesn't , and that is carbidopa.. and I was told that this is important for protecting your other vital organs... (heart valves). Anyone like to comment? Did I hear correctly, or is this a bad science review?
Anyway, there is another complication that occurs with these
issues of a better life by so-called 'nutritional supplements'. My advice is that you dont play doctor or dietitian with Mucuna. Tendency is for the addict in us to take both Sinemet and Mucuna together, my reasoning was that somehow I found a 'sinemet boost-nirvana', simultaneously hoping that the carbidopa protective effect will take care of the Mucuna-originated excess component of the dopamine excess as well.
Mucuna indeed is powerful 'turbo-charge', and is addictive. It will burn a new neural pathway that you don't want. My advice is stay away. It is also expensive.
In my opinion, I think it ought to be a controlled substance.
Take it from one who was going down the wrong path, and has now seen the light, (dopamine dysregulation syndrome & addict) and hopefully has caught it in time.
Sincerely,
-jt ....a dbs pd'r in California neuromodulating down to sane levels of Sinemet! been off Mucuna for ~ 3 weeks now- hey where's my 21 day chip? ;-)
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Herald
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 2
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: PD- Ayurvedic view
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Zandopa is a branded medicine from one of the Ayurvedic pharma company in India. This company is not in the first 10 . Ayurveda has a comphrehensive view for the management of PD. Our discussion is moving in a single direction and other options for the PD managements from the alternative ways were ignored. There is a cleaning process in Ayurveda called Panchkarma therapy, which has given symptomatic relief to so many PD patients. It understands the body according to the three basic somatic humours of Ayurveda- Vat, Pitt and Kaph and treatments are designed accordingly.
Ayurveda names PD as Kampa vat and internal medications are aimed to pacify the vat in the body. So a rejuvenative treatment is the best option. Kerala, southern state of India is famous for Panchkarma therapy. Please check the authenticity of the treatment centers there. There are Green leaf and Olive leaf certifications to the centers and one of my friend advised not to go to resorts for the treatment.
You should go to good Ayurvedic hospitals with qualified doctors. English is widely used there. One of my friend completed 21 days treatment for $ 3000 including food and accomodation( his GF also get a free rejuvenation). Sounds good.....
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CBishop
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject:
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As the wife of a PWP who has tried non-drug methods, fava beans, mucuna, Sinemet, and now DBS over the years, I think I can speak from some experience on the matter of mucuna vs Sinemet. At first, I was convinced that taking l-dopa in the natural form found in mucuna seeds was safer than the synthetic pharmaceutical product. But I did a lot of research (I formerly worked as a biomedical scientist) on this and could not find any data to support that assumption.
The disadvantages of taking mucuna powder vs Sinemet include: It is harder to take enough to help; you eventually end up needing to supplement with Lodosyn (carbidopa) or Sinemet (which contains carbidopa) in order to have enough l-dopa in your system to help; it gets really expensive (compared to generic Sinemet covered by health insurance); and MOST IMPORTANT, medical doctors don't understand mucuna, may refuse to cooperate with you, and probably will cause you major problems because they don't understand that mucuna is a concentrated source of l-dopa. The thing that is currently helping my DH a lot is DBS. He's only been turned on less than 2 weeks, and already his tremor is gone as is his stiffness and some of his bradykinesia, all with a 30% reduction in medication. And he stands to gain more benefits as he adjusts to the huge change in his body and the stimulation and medications are fine-tuned. HERE'S THE THING: You probably will never have the opportunity to have DBS if you stay with mucuna. The main criteria for being considered (and approved by health plans) for the surgery are good response to sinemet and maxing out on the benefits you get from medical therapy (as well as the absence of significant cognitive effects). This is something to seriously consider for your future.
Best wishes to you in your PD journey,
Carolynn (aka Sunny)
Must be the longest post ever? Don't take it as a challenge please!
The problem with l-dopa treatments and mucuna substitutes is that they are only palliative.
What is needed and what I aimed to produce is a restorative treatment to put neurons back into their proper mode and get them out of defensive mode (defending against a long term chronic low grade infection or inflammation). Then the cells can do their job and enough dopamine will be produced to match the need.
Research must be aimed at restoration of normal cell function and not just palliation of the status quo for a while.
The problem with l-dopa treatments and mucuna substitutes is that they are only palliative.
What is needed and what I aimed to produce is a restorative treatment to put neurons back into their proper mode and get them out of defensive mode (defending against a long term chronic low grade infection or inflammation). Then the cells can do their job and enough dopamine will be produced to match the need.
Research must be aimed at restoration of normal cell function and not just palliation of the status quo for a while.
Lol 
Hi Adrian
Hope you are Ok
I dont know anything about Mucuna pruriens personally but their is a page about it in a book I recently purchased. You may already have it, but in case not, here is the page..
A Natural Source of L-Dopa
"Zandopa"(HP"200)
L-dopa derived from a plant source (mucuna pruriens) has been found in clinical trials (1,2,3,4,5..havent listed as will take too long!) to be effective in the control of symptoms of Parkinsons Disease. Some patients are prescribed this form of medication by their neurologists if they are unable to tolerate pharmaceutical L-dopa and in some cases it may be helpful. Doses of L-dopa from mucana puriens have been standardised in a specialized manufacturing process. As with other drugs and nutrients, consideration must be given to possible drug - nutrient interactions or contraindications for its use due to specific health conditions. Long-term effects must still be medically evaluated. As such, administation and monitoring of mucuna pruriens must alyas be under medical supervision.
Important Note
Patients must not "self-medicate" or use the unprocessed mucuna pruriens beans as a vegetable, as there can be associated health risk".
Taken from the book "Parkinsons Disease, Reducing Symptoms with nutrition and drugs by Dr Geoffrey Leader & Lucille Leader.
Hope this is helpful
Carrot
Hope you are Ok
I dont know anything about Mucuna pruriens personally but their is a page about it in a book I recently purchased. You may already have it, but in case not, here is the page..
A Natural Source of L-Dopa
"Zandopa"(HP"200)
L-dopa derived from a plant source (mucuna pruriens) has been found in clinical trials (1,2,3,4,5..havent listed as will take too long!) to be effective in the control of symptoms of Parkinsons Disease. Some patients are prescribed this form of medication by their neurologists if they are unable to tolerate pharmaceutical L-dopa and in some cases it may be helpful. Doses of L-dopa from mucana puriens have been standardised in a specialized manufacturing process. As with other drugs and nutrients, consideration must be given to possible drug - nutrient interactions or contraindications for its use due to specific health conditions. Long-term effects must still be medically evaluated. As such, administation and monitoring of mucuna pruriens must alyas be under medical supervision.
Important Note
Patients must not "self-medicate" or use the unprocessed mucuna pruriens beans as a vegetable, as there can be associated health risk".
Taken from the book "Parkinsons Disease, Reducing Symptoms with nutrition and drugs by Dr Geoffrey Leader & Lucille Leader.
Hope this is helpful
Carrot
I was diagnosed in October 2008 and have not yet been prescribed any meds. Next appointment in June will probably change this. I have been taking Mucuna (2 x twice a day) and Mentat (2 x twice a day) both marketed by [post edited]. Mentat is for mental alertness and has some Mucuna in it. I think my symptoms (tremor in left hand and sometimes in leg, some stifness in shoulder and left hand) would have got a lot worse if I had not been taking the above. I am also taking Folic acid, and Starflower Oil capsules the Doctor asked me to stop B12. I would like to try Chewexpert's programme.
Hi
Here is the same debate about Mucuna, across the pond.
See:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread42952.html
KenKi
Here is the same debate about Mucuna, across the pond.
See:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread42952.html
KenKi
Thank you one and all for responding to my request for information on mucuna pruriens so generously. I feel that I now have a good insight into the fors and againsts. I much appreciate it.
Kind regards
Adrian
Kind regards
Adrian