A big 'yes' to individuality!
Conformity -- to say the forum needs to be founded on respect for individuality does not go far enough! We need to learn to see ourselves honestly, and then engage our strengths while compensating for our weaknesses. If we can attempt to do this we need not to disparage other members of the forum. We need to respect members in consideration of both theirs, and our own, individual characteristics. Can this be achieved without censorship? Does anyone know of any other forums that are not moderated and respect individuality?
Hi all moderators & community,
I have SCANNED all posts since my last posts!
Titan - your poem was spot on in all our thoughts
Kyloe - Loved that i didn't know you had self-deleted to make a point! Well done
As i have suggested, also spam95 and Cutiepie - when new forum is up-dated it would be good to have a social networking area (realtime chat) as Facebook has for individuals to thrash out debates (if they choose as adults wanting freedom of speech without moderation!)
As moderators job - if you feel a thread is becoming out of hand or abusive/offensive/attacking etc then maybe as i've suggested before a polite message saying it has been moved rather than deleted (because when things are deleted we all want to know whats been said!!) to a 'red light' forum then we can choose either to be nosey/be impulsive due to meds or whatever OR ignore the bun fight and continue without threat on the original thread to continue the topic under discussion in an orderly fashion.
Moderators - please, please share with us your thoughts on what proposals you have for forum change/update - BEFORE it happens - this will open a thread on a new productive discussion (hopefully!)
P.S Let's not forget that meds SOMETIMES make SOME of us respond/react/think to things differently.
P.S.S Any one noticed one of our main forum contributors hasn't YET posted on this thread?? Deliberately witholding OR just very very poorly???
Sorry - just a non-biased OR even guilt ridden thought!
keep talking
Diane
I have SCANNED all posts since my last posts!
Titan - your poem was spot on in all our thoughts
Kyloe - Loved that i didn't know you had self-deleted to make a point! Well done
As i have suggested, also spam95 and Cutiepie - when new forum is up-dated it would be good to have a social networking area (realtime chat) as Facebook has for individuals to thrash out debates (if they choose as adults wanting freedom of speech without moderation!)
As moderators job - if you feel a thread is becoming out of hand or abusive/offensive/attacking etc then maybe as i've suggested before a polite message saying it has been moved rather than deleted (because when things are deleted we all want to know whats been said!!) to a 'red light' forum then we can choose either to be nosey/be impulsive due to meds or whatever OR ignore the bun fight and continue without threat on the original thread to continue the topic under discussion in an orderly fashion.
Moderators - please, please share with us your thoughts on what proposals you have for forum change/update - BEFORE it happens - this will open a thread on a new productive discussion (hopefully!)
P.S Let's not forget that meds SOMETIMES make SOME of us respond/react/think to things differently.
P.S.S Any one noticed one of our main forum contributors hasn't YET posted on this thread?? Deliberately witholding OR just very very poorly???
Sorry - just a non-biased OR even guilt ridden thought!
keep talking
Diane
No matter what you write, somebody will find it offensive. They even banned Noddy and Bigears and everyone knows they were just good friends.
Yes I do take this topic seriously even though I find it confusing and
ambiguous.
ambiguous.
moderaters,you say were all movin forward,you wont the forum to work,we wont it to work.but can you say to us when are you thinkin of changin the forum,is it weeks or in to months,how long have we got to disguss things.everything that people are surgestin on this thread,i guess is bein noted down by ur selfs,but lot of it is all different,how are you goin to be able to make us all happy ,thats impossible.so far we have spoke about attacks on the forum,but to me im none the wiser wot you intend to do about it.can you please start givin us some ideas wot your intendin to do.and also when do we go on to the next stage ,attacks been spoke of for a while now,u must have some sort of picture of wot members would like to see,even if we not all agree with one another.
Hi everybody
Thanks again for all your contributions to this thread.
Kyloe... I think you have raised a really important point about the message that we put up when we have to delete a post. This is something that we need to have more discussion about and I would like to return to it in a separate thread
Alij and Annebernadette....We will be shortly be sharing more about the move to a new platform for this forum. However the changes are as much about how we respond and interact with each other as a community not just the technical stuff... so this thread and the other steps that we have taken such as identifying ourselves, are a really important part of the process
This thread has been focused on the question of personal attacks and how we as a community think and feel about these. We just wanted to make sure that everyone felt that they had a chance to share their opinions on this. We’ll close the thread on Monday and make some suggestions about going forward from what we've heard. WE won't be able to solve everything at once but at least this is a start, we want to continue to have an open channel for this discussion
Tim
Thanks again for all your contributions to this thread.
Kyloe... I think you have raised a really important point about the message that we put up when we have to delete a post. This is something that we need to have more discussion about and I would like to return to it in a separate thread
Alij and Annebernadette....We will be shortly be sharing more about the move to a new platform for this forum. However the changes are as much about how we respond and interact with each other as a community not just the technical stuff... so this thread and the other steps that we have taken such as identifying ourselves, are a really important part of the process
This thread has been focused on the question of personal attacks and how we as a community think and feel about these. We just wanted to make sure that everyone felt that they had a chance to share their opinions on this. We’ll close the thread on Monday and make some suggestions about going forward from what we've heard. WE won't be able to solve everything at once but at least this is a start, we want to continue to have an open channel for this discussion
Tim
thankyou tim
Not much talking around 'ere today, Wassup, you all got lock jaw ? 
C'mon guys and gals this is a chance to air your views.
Thanks Tim for the update
C'mon guys and gals this is a chance to air your views.
Thanks Tim for the update
Well here goes Kyloe, my thoughts.
I am not sure about a bunfight thread as Parkinsons UK is a national charity and I think it has to keep a decent website. But some kind of a free expression thread could be opened as a trial and maybe it could be made to work.
I would like only people who register with the website to be able to see all the postings in order to give us more confidentiality or in reality would that not protect us much as anyone could register?
I agree with the others who feel a website needs rules and some kind of moderation to run well. I would also like to see the message Post Deleted put more discreetly as it sounds very officious.
I try to be serious and correct on this website but I am a non conformist at heart. I often would like to PM someone with a comment but I dont want to invade their privacy. I guess as I dont know people personally I need to be discreet, even though we meet daily on the site.
I am not sure about a bunfight thread as Parkinsons UK is a national charity and I think it has to keep a decent website. But some kind of a free expression thread could be opened as a trial and maybe it could be made to work.
I would like only people who register with the website to be able to see all the postings in order to give us more confidentiality or in reality would that not protect us much as anyone could register?
I agree with the others who feel a website needs rules and some kind of moderation to run well. I would also like to see the message Post Deleted put more discreetly as it sounds very officious.
I try to be serious and correct on this website but I am a non conformist at heart. I often would like to PM someone with a comment but I dont want to invade their privacy. I guess as I dont know people personally I need to be discreet, even though we meet daily on the site.
Hi Drobb
Perhaps I am wrong but I assume that your reference to a member who hasn't posted in this thread is Ray of Sunshine.
If I am right, could it be because he is banned until Jan 30 when the thread will be closed so he will be unable to contribute despite being on the receiving end of many attacks and bans, and the perpetrator of some misguided posts on occasion.
It might be useful to lift the ban for this thread only to enable him to contribute.
GG
Perhaps I am wrong but I assume that your reference to a member who hasn't posted in this thread is Ray of Sunshine.
If I am right, could it be because he is banned until Jan 30 when the thread will be closed so he will be unable to contribute despite being on the receiving end of many attacks and bans, and the perpetrator of some misguided posts on occasion.
It might be useful to lift the ban for this thread only to enable him to contribute.
GG
I thought Drobb meant someone else. Or the thread could be left a few weeks longer.
Giggerty giggerty.....oh yeah!
The Quahog is shut tight!
The Quahog is shut tight!
Giggerty giggerty.....oh yeah!
The Quahog is shut tight!
And thats your best contribution ?
No wonder some folks despair
Polly ....your suggestion that only registered members should have visual access to posts is a good one and used on other forums frequently. I would add that a subscribing members only section would be a small way for PUK to acknowledge the financial support some members give, thats members who pay their PUK annual subscription, not to be confused with forum members.
GG I'm sure anyone who is banned can still read these threads, that being the case all they need to do is submit their thoughts and ideas via email direct to PUK
The Quahog is shut tight!
And thats your best contribution ?
No wonder some folks despair
Polly ....your suggestion that only registered members should have visual access to posts is a good one and used on other forums frequently. I would add that a subscribing members only section would be a small way for PUK to acknowledge the financial support some members give, thats members who pay their PUK annual subscription, not to be confused with forum members.
GG I'm sure anyone who is banned can still read these threads, that being the case all they need to do is submit their thoughts and ideas via email direct to PUK
Giggerty.......
Hi GG,
You have thought right! I wasn't aware of the ban but when posting i wondered if this might be the case and i agree with your full statement.
Moderators - If Kyloe is right and from past history, i'm guessing you have an inbox full of messages?
The timings of this thread now feel somewhat 'organised' to say the least.
But back to the focus of this thread -
Although sharing experiences is important, I think it would be really helpful to avoid rehashing the fine details and specifics of negative things which have happened to you, and instead focus on how to shape/channel our collective experiences toward something positive for everyone
Rehashing the finer details has given everyone a voice particularly those who haven't yet voiced their opinions/experiences!
Of those that have contributed - well moderators it's now over to you to shape
these experiences then feed back to us your findings.(do hope you are on a good salary???)
Looking forward to feed back on your proposals!
Best wishes everyone!
Keep talking
Diane
You have thought right! I wasn't aware of the ban but when posting i wondered if this might be the case and i agree with your full statement.
Moderators - If Kyloe is right and from past history, i'm guessing you have an inbox full of messages?
The timings of this thread now feel somewhat 'organised' to say the least.
But back to the focus of this thread -
Although sharing experiences is important, I think it would be really helpful to avoid rehashing the fine details and specifics of negative things which have happened to you, and instead focus on how to shape/channel our collective experiences toward something positive for everyone
Rehashing the finer details has given everyone a voice particularly those who haven't yet voiced their opinions/experiences!
Of those that have contributed - well moderators it's now over to you to shape
these experiences then feed back to us your findings.(do hope you are on a good salary???)
Looking forward to feed back on your proposals!
Best wishes everyone!
Keep talking
Diane
The question I ask myself is why do we feel insulted and upset over replies to posts? We all respond differently and some are more sensitive than others!
The rule of thumb that I feel is appropriate is if someone approaches the moderator with a complaint, then it needs to be investigated and appropriate action taken. As a guide if the person who posts is seen to be attacking a post then he/she is not guilty of bad behaviour. If they attack the person rather than the post then not only is it bad mannered but in nearly 100% of cases can be interpreted as bullying! A warning should then be issued. If it continues then a ban from the site has to result. The punishment to fit the crime.
The issue of multiple identities then becomes a problem so to overcome this we should have a visible register of members. Self regulation works in many facets of industry so with an honest open facility we should be able to identify those that hide behind more than one name!
On another note I would ask you not to close this thread until Ray of Sunshine has the opportunity to post his observations!
The rule of thumb that I feel is appropriate is if someone approaches the moderator with a complaint, then it needs to be investigated and appropriate action taken. As a guide if the person who posts is seen to be attacking a post then he/she is not guilty of bad behaviour. If they attack the person rather than the post then not only is it bad mannered but in nearly 100% of cases can be interpreted as bullying! A warning should then be issued. If it continues then a ban from the site has to result. The punishment to fit the crime.
The issue of multiple identities then becomes a problem so to overcome this we should have a visible register of members. Self regulation works in many facets of industry so with an honest open facility we should be able to identify those that hide behind more than one name!
On another note I would ask you not to close this thread until Ray of Sunshine has the opportunity to post his observations!
i dont mean to put the dampners on things butwhen you say some ones name,instead of member is that a break rule,or is it when u say there real name.would like the rules to be clarified on that one pleaseand also,when ezenda started the tread she made it clear this was not about any particular member or members,just about attack on people etc,then we move on to the next issue etc,to move forward with the forum and try to resolve how to deal with things on it.but wot im conserned about,i guess i see wot some folk are sayin if its becomin about ray ,let him speak,i for one no it is not much fun watchin and not able to rite.but im worried that when ray is comein back,how will he be seein it,will he be ok,or will he beupset,or cross ,who nows.no one does.im not stickin up for no one or against no one just statin facts.i thought we wonted to move forward not backwards ,or have i missed somethin here?
and also,when ezenda started the tread she made it clear this was not about any particular member or members,just about attack on people etc,then we move on to the next issue etc,to move forward with the forum and try to resolve how to deal with things on it.but wot im conserned about,i guess i see wot some folk are sayin if its becomin about ray ,let him speak,i for one no it is not much fun watchin and not able to rite.but im worried that when ray is comein back,how will he be seein it,will he be ok,or will he beupset,or cross ,who nows.no one does.im not stickin up for no one or against no one just statin facts.i thought we wonted to move forward not backwards ,or have i missed somethin here?
Hi Golden Girl,
Thanks for posting.
This will hopefully be the first of several week-long conversations about particular topics on the forum. We wanted to steer clear of keeping it open-ended just so that we could take away the comments we receive and take action on them where we can.
Because of this, it probably would not make sense to hold it open for weeks to allow members who may be suspended to post. This doesn't meant that we don't want to hear from these community members--In fact, several people have chosen to send their thoughts by email instead of posting. And this option is available to anyone who may not have been with us during the week.
We really want to make sure we get as many constructive responses to these issues as we can so once we close this thread on Monday, we will also have an ongoing "Suggestions, compliments and complaints" section which is always open for....well suggestions, compliments and complaints about what we're doing and how we're doing it.
I hope this addresses your concerns above.
Also, I'd like to repeat again--this thread is about a community, which is never one person. To keep this as constructive as possible let try to steer clear of referring to individuals.
Ezinda
Thanks for posting.
This will hopefully be the first of several week-long conversations about particular topics on the forum. We wanted to steer clear of keeping it open-ended just so that we could take away the comments we receive and take action on them where we can.
Because of this, it probably would not make sense to hold it open for weeks to allow members who may be suspended to post. This doesn't meant that we don't want to hear from these community members--In fact, several people have chosen to send their thoughts by email instead of posting. And this option is available to anyone who may not have been with us during the week.
We really want to make sure we get as many constructive responses to these issues as we can so once we close this thread on Monday, we will also have an ongoing "Suggestions, compliments and complaints" section which is always open for....well suggestions, compliments and complaints about what we're doing and how we're doing it.
I hope this addresses your concerns above.
Also, I'd like to repeat again--this thread is about a community, which is never one person. To keep this as constructive as possible let try to steer clear of referring to individuals.
Ezinda
Hi all,
Okay, I’ve had a chance to take a close look at the thread and come out with a way forward.
Firstly, I’d like to thank you all so much for contributing here. I’m really glad everyone showed such an interest.
We’ve set out what we thought were the main concerns below but do let us know if you think I’ve left something out.
What we understood from you
Most felt that personal attacks should not be tolerated and these posts should be removed. The current guidelines seemed to cover it okay.
But, there were some concerns and suggestions:
1) Sometimes the community team should jump in sooner to avoid attacks.
2) There should be room from strong opinions, heated debate and expression of feelings on the forum. The community team should not censor this.
3) It’s hard to know what to do with subtle jabs or ambiguous statements. What seems like an attack may not always be one.
4) More features on the forum could help how we relate.
5) Posting “posts removed” may make things worse.
6) The should be area on the forum where people can “get it out of their system”
What we think
Firstly, I wanted to clarify again what we mean by personal attacks--these are attacks on a someone, based on personal characteristics that aims to put them down, belittle them or even bully them. This is different from a post that is just impolite.
Because the forum is public, there are some things that we cannot allow to be here. We mentioned before that we have a duty of care to protect the people in the community.
Still, this shouldn’t get in the way of community members discussing important issues, voicing strong opinions or expressing feelings.
People should not feel they are being attacked but they also should not feel like they have to walk on eggshells here.
Luis came up with a brilliant phrase which I think sums it up and which I’ll insist that we post in our office to remind us: We aim to protect, not censor.
The truth is that we only remove posts in a small minority of cases. This is usually where the post could be harmful or cause us to breach the duty I talk about above (some examples: direct attacks on community members, bullying, libel, copyright, naming someone or revealing personal details such as their email addresses).
We’ve also recently changed how we do remove posts when we have to. We always write to the person whose post we’ve removed to let them know why we have done this. Where we can, we invite them to edit the post.
But, like everyone else, we make mistakes. If we remove one of your posts and you think this is wrong, write to us and let us know why.
One last thing— we'll never be able to catch everything. We need the community to let us know when things are going south or if we’ve missed something.
We also want to remind you to give each other (and us) the benefit of a doubt. If you’re not sure about a post, take another look at it with an open mind.
And please do keep talking to us.
Next steps
• We’ll add something like “attack the post, not the poster” to our guidelines (though we may need to think about this a bit further as I’m not sure attacking posts is too great either).
• We’ll take review our procedure for dealing with abusive posts and share changes with the community.
• We’ll open a suggestions, complaints, compliments thread so that there is always a space for members to make their voices heard on issues in the community.
• We’ll post tips and advice for protecting yourself on the forum.
• There were a few issues raised here that need a conversation of their own. We’d like to discuss these issues further with the community in individual threads:
Additional resources for the community (pictures/chat)
Free expression/ bunfight zone
How/should we inform the community that we’ve removed a post? (leave a detailed message/ remove with no message)
If we missed anything, do let us know on the new suggestions thread which will be put up today.
Ezinda
Okay, I’ve had a chance to take a close look at the thread and come out with a way forward.
Firstly, I’d like to thank you all so much for contributing here. I’m really glad everyone showed such an interest.
We’ve set out what we thought were the main concerns below but do let us know if you think I’ve left something out.
What we understood from you
Most felt that personal attacks should not be tolerated and these posts should be removed. The current guidelines seemed to cover it okay.
But, there were some concerns and suggestions:
1) Sometimes the community team should jump in sooner to avoid attacks.
2) There should be room from strong opinions, heated debate and expression of feelings on the forum. The community team should not censor this.
3) It’s hard to know what to do with subtle jabs or ambiguous statements. What seems like an attack may not always be one.
4) More features on the forum could help how we relate.
5) Posting “posts removed” may make things worse.
6) The should be area on the forum where people can “get it out of their system”
What we think
Firstly, I wanted to clarify again what we mean by personal attacks--these are attacks on a someone, based on personal characteristics that aims to put them down, belittle them or even bully them. This is different from a post that is just impolite.
Because the forum is public, there are some things that we cannot allow to be here. We mentioned before that we have a duty of care to protect the people in the community.
Still, this shouldn’t get in the way of community members discussing important issues, voicing strong opinions or expressing feelings.
People should not feel they are being attacked but they also should not feel like they have to walk on eggshells here.
Luis came up with a brilliant phrase which I think sums it up and which I’ll insist that we post in our office to remind us: We aim to protect, not censor.
The truth is that we only remove posts in a small minority of cases. This is usually where the post could be harmful or cause us to breach the duty I talk about above (some examples: direct attacks on community members, bullying, libel, copyright, naming someone or revealing personal details such as their email addresses).
We’ve also recently changed how we do remove posts when we have to. We always write to the person whose post we’ve removed to let them know why we have done this. Where we can, we invite them to edit the post.
But, like everyone else, we make mistakes. If we remove one of your posts and you think this is wrong, write to us and let us know why.
One last thing— we'll never be able to catch everything. We need the community to let us know when things are going south or if we’ve missed something.
We also want to remind you to give each other (and us) the benefit of a doubt. If you’re not sure about a post, take another look at it with an open mind.
And please do keep talking to us.
Next steps
• We’ll add something like “attack the post, not the poster” to our guidelines (though we may need to think about this a bit further as I’m not sure attacking posts is too great either).
• We’ll take review our procedure for dealing with abusive posts and share changes with the community.
• We’ll open a suggestions, complaints, compliments thread so that there is always a space for members to make their voices heard on issues in the community.
• We’ll post tips and advice for protecting yourself on the forum.
• There were a few issues raised here that need a conversation of their own. We’d like to discuss these issues further with the community in individual threads:
Additional resources for the community (pictures/chat)
Free expression/ bunfight zone
How/should we inform the community that we’ve removed a post? (leave a detailed message/ remove with no message)
If we missed anything, do let us know on the new suggestions thread which will be put up today.
Ezinda